Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty > French Royals
Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen
Sissi:
I think I not, there is a replica of her cell with wax officers, is that the one?
coquelicot:
Hi, everybody ! I'm not sure it's the right place to introduce myself, so, I'll do it quickly ! I'm a belgian girl, my mothertong is french, and I'm intersted in Marie-Antoinette's life since a long time.
I've read so fascinating information on this site that I'd like to answer.
The most important, I think, is the relationship between the queen and Axel de Fersen. I agree with most of the posts saying that they most of all were friends.
Following the remarkable biography by Simone Bertière, Marie-Antoinette would never made her marriage contract in danger by making such a mistake as having a lover !
Of course, Antonia Fraser reminds us of the fact that contraception means were well known during the XVIIIth century, and that Fersen certainly has a good knowledge of all those.
But, in my view, having been raised in Marie-Thérèse's principles, Marie-Antoinette must have been very cautious in these matters. She wouldn't put in her children's veins anything but Burbon blood !
Marie-Liesl was so kind as to quote and translate a message sent to Fersen after Varennes' tragedy. This message is highly controversed. It isn't handwritten by Marie-Antoinette, the only copy we have is a translation of the original, that was coded.
Some historians have doubts about this note (Chalon, Delorme). They think it's not written by Marie-Antoinette, but by someone else using the code.
Evelyne Lever, who recently edited most of the letters of the queen, consider it a message truely sent by the queen... but admit that, about their relationship, we'll probably never know...
Anyway, as elena-maria-vidal points out, this tender language doesn't mean that much. It was the fashion of the time, and Marie-Antoinette "kisses" all her friends she loved "with all her heart" or "all her soul", to the "most tender of friends" (as, for instance, to Madame de Polignac, her best friend).
Some letters, very sweet, discovered among Fersen's papers, are also translated by him from a coded version. Mercy-Argenteau had copies too... that are less soft !
It seems that Fersen didn't disagree to be consider the lover of the queen of France, and that he cultivated this reputation.
I'd also like to remind that, this famous last night at the Tuileries, the "stayed here" night, he left poor Marie-Antoinette with her tears and her misfortunes, for running into his sensual mistress Eleonora's arms.
He may look like a hero, I have no admiration for him. Being too aristocratic, he gave Marie-Antoinette very bad advices, that no doubt led her easier to the guillotine. She, unfortunately, blindly relied on him.
elena_maria_vidal:
--- Quote ---I think I not, there is a replica of her cell with wax officers, is that the one?
--- End quote ---
Yes, that is the one!
Sissi:
Do you mean this?
elena_maria_vidal:
--- Quote ---Hi, everybody ! I'm not sure it's the right place to introduce myself, so, I'll do it quickly ! I'm a belgian girl, my mothertong is french, and I'm intersted in Marie-Antoinette's life since a long time.
I've read so fascinating information on this site that I'd like to answer.
The most important, I think, is the relationship between the queen and Axel de Fersen. I agree with most of the posts saying that they most of all were friends.
Following the remarkable biography by Simone Bertière, Marie-Antoinette would never made her marriage contract in danger by making such a mistake as having a lover !
Of course, Antonia Fraser reminds us of the fact that contraception means were well known during the XVIIIth century, and that Fersen certainly has a good knowledge of all those.
But, in my view, having been raised in Marie-Thérèse's principles, Marie-Antoinette must have been very cautious in these matters. She wouldn't put in her children's veins anything but Burbon blood !
Marie-Liesl was so kind as to quote and translate a message sent to Fersen after Varennes' tragedy. This message is highly controversed. It isn't handwritten by Marie-Antoinette, the only copy we have is a translation of the original, that was coded.
Some historians have doubts about this note (Chalon, Delorme). They think it's not written by Marie-Antoinette, but by someone else using the code.
Evelyne Lever, who recently edited most of the letters of the queen, consider it a message truely sent by the queen... but admit that, about their relationship, we'll probably never know...
Anyway, as elena-maria-vidal points out, this tender language doesn't mean that much. It was the fashion of the time, and Marie-Antoinette "kisses" all her friends she loved "with all her heart" or "all her soul", to the "most tender of friends" (as, for instance, to Madame de Polignac, her best friend).
Some letters, very sweet, discovered among Fersen's papers, are also translated by him from a coded version. Mercy-Argenteau had copies too... that are less soft !
It seems that Fersen didn't disagree to be consider the lover of the queen of France, and that he cultivated this reputation.
I'd also like to remind that, this famous last night at the Tuileries, the "stayed here" night, he left poor Marie-Antoinette with her tears and her misfortunes, for running into his sensual mistress Eleonora's arms.
He may look like a hero, I have no admiration for him. Being too aristocratic, he gave Marie-Antoinette very bad advices, that no doubt led her easier to the guillotine. She, unfortunately, blindly relied on him.
--- End quote ---
Welcome, coquelicot!! Thank you for all of the information, very helpful and interesting!
There is one thing you said that I must offer a different opinion. I read what Antonia Fraser wrote about contraception and I must say I found it so ridiculous I could not stand to read the rest of her book. I have no doubt that Fersen knew about contraception as did the Duc d'Orleans and other bon-vivants. For Marie-Antoinette, from a prolific family where everyone had at least 10 children, to have consented to the use of such things while carrying on an adulterous affair is beyond belief to me. It was an age of loose-living and free-thinking but Marie-Antoinette abhorred such immorality, as she would certainly have been taught to view it. Even if she had slept with Axel, she would never have used birth control. Birth control, in those days, for those who actively adhered to the Catholic religion (like Marie-Antoinette) was practically in the category of the unnatural vices. It was seen as something that very dissolute people engaged in with prostitutes. The Pope a century later would not even write about contraception because he said it was so unheard of, that it was not even an issue with ordinary practicing Catholics. For Lady Fraser (for whom I have the greatest respect as a biographer) to insert that into her biography of the queen was to impose modern morals and outlook on a woman to whom "our" views of procreation and the thwarting of of procreation would be completely alien.
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