Marie Antoinette and Axel Fersen

[coquelicot]

How beautiful ! How true ! And still true nowadays, alas...

Thank you so much, elena-maria-vidal !

So many people having met her had the impression of seeing an angel...

[Sissi]

 Beautiful indeed!

[elena_maria_vidal]

Thank you! One gets the sense of the powerful impression she made on people, and how she won hearts.

[coquelicot]

In a way, I think we may say that some courtiers detested her simply because they couldn't reach this magics, they weren't among "the happy few" of Trianon. I mean, calomnies and revenges weren't only made for calculated reasons and on ambition purposes, but also because of simple jealousy. They felt rejected, and to be rejected by such a charming person as Antoinette must be a terrible feeling... How many were the powerful ones who were never invited to the blue theatre private performances ?

[Eddie_uk]

Thank you! One gets the sense of the powerful impression she made on people, and how she won hearts.

Very true Elena! Barnave was a good example of that, poor chap.  :-/

[elena_maria_vidal]

Yes, Eddieboy, Barnave is another example.

[elena_maria_vidal]

In a way, I think we may say that some courtiers detested her simply because they couldn't reach this magics, they weren't among "the happy few" of Trianon. I mean, calomnies and revenges weren't only made for calculated reasons and on ambition purposes, but also because of simple jealousy. They felt rejected, and to be rejected by such a charming person as Antoinette must be a terrible feeling... How many were the powerful ones who were never invited to the blue theatre private performances ?

I agree. I think there were SO many who were jealous of her and upset when they weren't included. Remember how Cardinal de Rohan tried to crash one of her parties at Trianon to which she would not invite him  because of the foul joke he had told about her mother?

[coquelicot]

Right ! I never understood how a man could behave so stupidly ! He tried all he could to approach her, and, even if it was obvious she didn't want to let him in, he went on. After years and years of having been treated coldly by Marie-Antoinette, how could he fall in the first Lamotte's rough trap ?

[elena_maria_vidal]

Vanity and lust do strange things to common sense!

[veu]

Naked behind a fan!!!!!!! that is ridiculous!!!! Ridiculous as having Kirsten Dunst as Marie Antoinette!!!!!!!!!!!

   RIDICULE!!!!!!! RIDICULE!!!!!!

Why?

[elena_maria_vidal]

The queen was known for her modesty and wore a gown in the bathtub. She hated the ceremony of having to dress and undress in front of others, as well as the ordeal of giving birth in public, which after their first child her husband abolished. That's why.

[Helen_Azar]

Do you think their relationship was ever consumated? Based on what evidence? Historians seem to be unsure. 

[Axel_von_Fersen]

Yes, I think MA and Axel von Fersen had sexual relations and that he might have fathered her last two children.  Several authors think so - Lady Fraser and Evelyn Lever most prominent among them.  There was a big increase in the number of MA pregnancies between 1783 and 1788 the period that coincides with Fersen's return.  There was also the rides alone and her remodling of a private apartment and finally the later destruction of his diaries. However, many more historians say no - never consummated - and what do you think? and why?

[pers]

I have also been reading up a lot about this specific issue lately for my own reasons...  I finished Evelyn Lever's biography yesterday evening and I also read some of what Pierre de Nolhac says in his books.  I am of the view along with Lever that at the moment we will not know for sure as there is no concrete evidence.  It would be interesting if the DNA from the heart of Louis XVII (St. Denis) could be compared with the remains of Axel Fersen in Sweden.

Also it will be WONDERFUL if we develop the necessary technology to be able to read the parts of the correspondence that Axel Fersen's nephew crossed out.  Then there is the issue of her having installed a Swedish stove in her inner apartments in Versailles for Axel. 

If one reads his correspondence and extracts out of his Journal Intime, I think one can sense that there was great love that existed between them and deep down, (we are all human after all!) I cannot think that one will not follow up on such feelings...

Whatever her official postion as Queen of France and his as a Swedish nobleman, love does not spare any of us and you have NO control as to when and with whom it enters your life.  Life is much more complicated than taking a simplistic view...  I respect the fact that here we have two individuals who loved one another, despite the difficulty of their circumstances.  One can out of a humane perspective only feel for them from the depths of one's heart.

[CountessKate]

Then there is the issue of her having installed a Swedish stove in her inner apartments in Versailles for Axel. 

I'm not convinced that installing a Swedish stove in her inner apartments was necessarily a form of deathless passion, it might just be the need for a superior form of heating.  Versailles certainly could do with it.