Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA

[helenazar]

But you know, look on the bright side guys, that's what makes these discussions so interesting, this difference of opinions and beliefs. Imagine if everyone just agreed on everything? What a boring forum discussion that would be!  

And some people want to disbelieve it so much that nothing will change their minds either!  

[kaatje]

I've always somewhat suspected the veracity of the results of the DNA testing, particularly when it comes to MtDNA.  If my belief is correct and I haven't really read up on this recently, it is passed down the maternal line only.

Therefore the question which most plagues me is this, what is there to stop somebody from simply using the DNA of a related person to prove the identity of somebody else, if  all testing is/has been kept out of the public eye until they have the results? And of course vice versa to deny the identity of someone, using someone elses DNA   This is kind of following on from Greg's thoughts in this sense, i.e many non related people share the same MtDNA.

It strikes me that were someone to want this (and I'm not talking about Joe public here), it would be quite visable thing to do given the secrecy involved.  Scientific testing is after all seen by the public to be the last word on the subject, therefore any result would (and is!) of course seen as an end to the debate, is it not.

After all not all bad (or indeed annoying) publicity is good publicity  

Katie

[Annie]

And some people want to disbelieve it so much that nothing will change their minds either!  

I can't speak for anyone else, but as for me, I WANT to believe, so much! Like I said earlier, to think Anastasia really escaped, lived to old age, and ended up in my home state caring for cats would be so exciting, so happy, so good, so 'cool.' I would love to believe it, and I did for years. But I really don't think it's possible anymore.  

After the DNA tests came in, I was disappointed but not surprised. I had so hoped it would be her. But I don't think the tests are that fallible, if so, my nephew should be able to give up paying child support on a daughter he claimed was not his but the tests proved was his. The courts believe that DNA testing (done in 1998 ) proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is the father. So if DNA testing is to be in question, that opens a whole new can of worms in paternity cases as well as criminal trial evidence! Why, we'd have people all over the place decrying, 'that's not really my kid!' or 'I wasn't really at that crime scene! The DNA test is not reliable!' Is this the ONLY case it's not true? I just can't accept that.

It was sad, it was pit of the stomach painful and heart tugging, but I had to give up the Anna thing and put it to bed. I know not everyone is ready to do that, but there still remains a mystery to be solved and I'd rather investigate other possibilities, because until the body shows up I will never be convinced she didn't get away

[Janet_W.]

When I first started reading about the mystery of Anastasia, I very much wanted to believe that she had survived. As I continued to read, I kept fluctuating between "Yes, she is alive," and "No, she couldn't possibly be."  For many years I was right on the fence.

Then the DNA tests came back. Although--from what I saw on the documentary--Gleb Botkin's granddaughter was completely and sincerely shocked by the revelations, I chose to believe in the DNA results.

I remembered reading an article, at the time of the 1971 film, in which one of the OTMA actresses said of the mystery, "What does it matter if she did survive? She'd be so old!"--and I wanted to scream, "What difference does that make? Nazi war criminals should be brought to trial, no matter how old they are, and likewise missing persons who turn out to be 'found' should be celebrated and recognized, no matter what their age!" And I still believe that.

However, I also wonder if any of us who have feelings for OTMAA should really want one of those children to have spent decades being ridiculed and subjected to all sorts of abuse, all the time realizing that she (or he) alone survives, and knowing that siblings and parents died most horribly, and that she (or he) has been left to live a nightmare?

Although I could never wish death on them, I think for them to have died together might have been best. Say, for example, that Olga did marry Prince Carol, and the others died. What sort of peace would Olga have had? Carol, as we know, was a dud of a husband. So what sort of consolation would it have been to have existed in an unhappy marriage, knowing that the bodies of your family lay festering in an unmarked grave?

As long as the remains of Alexei and one of his sisters remain missing, there always be some doubt as to how many Romanovs died that night. And I will not say "impossible!" that one of the family members might have survived. But given the overall situation, it does seem a stretch.

In the meantime, I feel sorrow for Anna Anderson. I believe that she did think she was Anastasia. Whether she was or not, of course, is what so many of us continue to question and debate. But either way, hers was a tragic and largely unfulfilled life, and I could not wish that on a child of Nicholas and Alexandra . . . nor anyone else's child.

[Mary]

Oh THANK YOU!
I've been so hoping that we could have a civilized discussion about this matter and my hat is off to the people here who are discussing it...and agreeing OR DISagreeing in a decent manner.

I have always doubteed the DNA tests standing as "revealed word of God." Life ALWAYS throws curve balls as any adult can tell you and so I mentioned this on another thread and was schocked at the sarcastic, and unnecessarily belittling tone of one of the responses.

I guess it's true some people have a lot tied up in DISbelieving anything the least bit idealistic.

"Gee, I won't be seen as a hard nosed intellectually superior skeptic if I disagree politely about another point of view"
seems to be the idea at work.

Well, maybe not but you will be seen as...POLITE or, er...WELL BROUGHT UP...Don't those count for anything?

So I humbly tip my hat to EVERYONE on this particular thread

You guys know how to discuss an issue that people may NEVER agree on and not let it turn you into animals.

As they say on pop music boards...

"You ROCK!!!!!"

[Katya04]

if DNA testing is to be in question, that opens a whole new can of worms in paternity cases as well as criminal trial evidence! Why, we'd have people all over the place decrying, 'that's not really my kid!' or 'I wasn't really at that crime scene!

That is true, if DNA tests are still in doubt and not the last word then a lot of other cases are in trouble now!

[Forum Admin]

This is also where the difference between mtDNA (which still remains reliable) and nuclear DNA must be kept distinct. mtDNA still can prove maternal relationships very accurately or not.

[LisaDavidson]

And, regardless of what one may "believe", the mtDNA of Prince Philip, Katherine de Silva and others - the "Hessian" or "Victorian" mtDNA matches exactly between living donors. This mtDNA exactly matches that found in the Koptyaki Forest remains and thought to be Alexandra and three of her daughters. It doesn't match the mtDNA of the finger thought to be Ella's and recently tested, nor does it match several samples of Anna Anderson.

I am of the opinion that there could be hundreds of tests run  - until no more samples remain - and still there would be people who did not "believe" them. And some people on the OJ jury didn't "believe" his DNA was found during the investigation of his ex-wife's murder.

[Annie]

I am of the opinion that there could be hundreds of tests run  - until no more samples remain - and still there would be people who did not "believe" them. And some people on the OJ jury didn't "believe" his DNA was found during the investigation of his ex-wife's murder.

Sigh, alas, this is true. :-/

[bookworm857158367]

I may well be mistaken, but isn't mitochondrial DNA less rare than some people believed initially. I remember reading a book that came out a few years ago -- "The Seven Tribes of Eve" or some such that says there are seven main groups of mitochondrial DNA for Europeans. The mitochondrial DNA for Alix and her daughters was of a type that is relatively common in Germany, according to this book.

In any case, the mitochondrial DNA is interesting because it helps scientists and anthropologists trace the migration of different population groups to different areas. It gives us a new insight into history before there are written records.

[Annie]

Only 7 groups? Hey my mt line is traced back to Switzerland in the early 1700's. I have all the names and everything. Maybe I am of the same tribe as Alix but anyway it still didn't match AA's sample :-/

[kaatje]

I think the book your thinking of was called 'The seven daughters of Eve' it states that everyone not just those in Europe desended from just seven women.

At the time of publication the author I think offered a service for people to have their mtDNA tested, to find out from which 'daughter' they belonged to.

Not just how reliable his theory was as I believe there was a lot of debate about what the author proposed, many scientists ridiculing his argument and so on.

Katie

[Kim]

There are many, many cases under re-examination, fortunately.  Please see:

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

I've been reading a series of articles in my local paper about bad results in DNA testing, but it claims human error and local contamination are to blame rather than the science or the methods used. It states that the science is very accurate, it's the people involved who sometimes mess things for these legal cases.

[kaatje]

Can't go into intricate details here because this is all from my memory.  The main criticsm aimed at Brian Sykes, the author of 'The seven daughters of Eve' to do with this book was the way in which he interspersed fact with fiction.

In fictionally describing the personalities of the seven daughters, many felt he had overdone it, crossing the bounderies of science into theory (while not making this clear), I suppose.  This though does not detract from Brian Sykes as a person, I should point out, as I've never meet him and I cannot really comment on that.  All I know is that when the book was published (in UK) many felt uncomfortable with what he was saying from a scientific point of view, not to mention what can only be said of his orginal marketing/publicity, this book afforded, which grabbed at lot of peoples including mines attention.


Katie

[Inquiring_Mind]

Hello,

I am new here but I have had a long time interest in this subject.

I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am someone who gets caught up in history's mysteries.

I have been reading many of your excellent topics.

Many of you question the validity of the DNA results .

I have been around for awhile and sadly, I believe all evil has a root in big money.

Many of you question motive...why would anyone publish false DNA results?

What about all that money that was in US and Europe? In the hands of bankers who played with it for decades?In my lifetime, I have seen a slowly narrowing of wealth in banking and insurance that narrows down to a select few.

I have read the books about the money or lack there of belonging to the czar. But why would anyone in the banking industry want a definitive answer to any of our questions? It just wouldn't be good for business!