Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA

[Mgmstl]

This thread is supposed to be a discussion of the differences between AA & FS, NON DNA.

Remember there are no ACTUAL photos of FS from her family.  So what you are working from is a VERY touched up photo of AA.  Let's realize that before an argument gets started, and we get thrown off track by those with an agenda.

[Denise]

You need to update this list of nonsense.  Many of these assertions of yours simply are not true, and the others have been forced through the filter of your pet theory.

YOU accusing someone else of 'nonsense' and 'pet theories?' PLEASE don't get me started

Please Annie AND Penny:  play nice.  I would like to keep this discussion civil and have a reasonable exchange of information with no name calling from anyone!  Thank you!!  

And besides, the Anastasia stuff is irrelevant to this discussion...

[Mgmstl]

No that is not correct, she did NOT only speak German.
Read the testimony of the nurses at Dalldorf.  She spoke and understood Russian like a native.  She also spoke different languages in her sleep, and was fluent in English & German.

No one has heard of Russian Emigres visiting her BEFORE Clara Peuthert came into the asylum, and upon her release in 1922 started to try to rally support for AA.

[helenazar]

This thread is supposed to be a discussion of the differences between AA & FS, NON DNA.

Michael, I thought this is what I was doing here    

Remember there are no ACTUAL photos of FS from her family.  So what you are working from is a VERY touched up photo of AA.  

So now you are saying that photos of AA are retouched? Or do you mean the one of FS? I pulled the unretouched FS photo, as well as both AA photos from Peter Kurth's site - I seriously doubt that he would be doing any retouching. No one seems to know where the FS photo originally came from, it may have come from her family. The other two were the retouched versions, but not the first one - that was my whole point. It's obvious that this first photo was untampered with... And as far as I know, Peter Kurth did not retouch the AA photos, why would you think that?

Anyway, I think I have to bug out of here, before another brawl starts. It doesn't seem that we can discuss this topic in a civil manner on any thread - ever, without attacks or accusations of having agendas. Which is very unfortunate.

[Mgmstl]

Helen, MY apologies.  It wasn't you I was referring to. It's the same argument that seems to happen.  It was nothing you did nor the photos you posted. PLEASE don't be offended

I am sorry if that is what you read into it.  I have just been lurking the past couple of days because of stomach flu, but feel better today.

Again I am sorry if I upset you.

[Elisabeth]

Anna Anderson did not have a Russian accent. Period. Ask any native Russian speaker to watch videos of Anna Anderson in action and s/he will tell you that the woman has a non-Russian accent that sounds Polish. This is one of the reasons why Russians are so incredibly offended by the mere suggestion that AA could have been a Russian grand duchess. I'm convinced it's one of the main reasons behind their continuing intransigence over the whole mass grave issue and which grand duchess is really missing. I don't think people realize quite how offensive Russians find it that anyone could ever imagine that AA, who sounds Polish, could have been AN. The Poles and Russians are traditional enemies.

But Annie and I have discussed the language issue exhaustively on another thread and we both concluded (as I recall) that FS, as a Kashubian, would have been multi-lingual - speaking Kashube, Polish, and probably German as well, since the part of Poland where she was born was made up of these ethnic groups and belonged to different empires in different periods. But Russian was presumably not one of her native tongues, and definitely not Anna Anderson's!

[helenazar]

Helen, MY apologies.  It wasn't you I was referring to. It's the same argument that seems to happen.  It was nothing you did nor the photos you posted. PLEASE don't be offended

I am sorry if that is what you read into it.  I have just been lurking the past couple of days because of stomach flu, but feel better today.

Again I am sorry if I upset you.

It's ok Michael. I am just getting very nervous about the impending fight brewing (as we can all see coming) and maybe it would be best to just cut out from this thread as I really don't have the energy nor the inclination for more unpleasantness.

I hope you get better soon, Michael.

[Malenkaya]

I also believe that handwriting might be another way forward. Has anyone ever analysed and compared AA/FS handwrtiting with that of GD Anastasia's?

Yes, a handwriting analyst stated based on handwriting alone, that AA and AN had to be the same person.

From page 314 of "Ridde Of Anna Anderson"

The results had far exceeded anyone's expectations.  And there was more to come: when Minna Becker's graphological analysis arrived, it was no less categorical than Reche's had been.  "I have never seen this many identical traits," said Dr. Becker, "in two scripts that did not come from the same hand....Identity of traits, therefore, identity of person....Mrs. Anderson is no one else than Grand Duchess Anastasia."

If this is true, I think it's pretty amazing.  I mean, it's one thing to be able to learn and memorize details from someone's else's life to try to pass yourself off as that person.  To be able to write like someone else, to the point where a trained professional also buys into your scam, is pretty amazing.  

If AA was FS, she was the smartest, luckiest and most talented peasant who ever lived.  Which is why, I would guess, so many of us are still consumed by what we still see as a mystery, despite the DNA "evidence."

[Mgmstl]

Elisabeth, I beg your pardon, BUT according to a nurse at Dalldorf,  "Riddle of Anna Anderson" pgs 10 & 11,

"The nurses at Dalldorf never doubted that FU was Russian.  It wasn't just her Eastern accent or the fact that she spoke foreign languages in her sleep. "She spoke perfect RUSSIAN, like a native," said Erna Bucholz, a former German teacher who had lived in Russia, "not like a foreigner who has learned Russian/"  Nurse Bucholz had been the first to take care of Fraulein Unbekannt at Dalldord and later she recalled an event that had taken place in the summer of  1920:

"During the nightshift, I had special opportunit to converse with er, as generall she could not sleep..... I told her one evening that I came from Russia, talked about the cathedral in Moscow (St. Basil's) and spoke about Russian matters in general.   She nodded and said she knew all this..... I asked her if she could speak Russian.  She answered Yes, whereupon we began to converse in Russian.  She DID NOT speak it faultily. Rather she used whole, complete, connected sentences without any impediments.... I absolutely got the impression that the patient was completely conversant in the Russian language, Russian affairs and especially Russian military matters."

You and Annie can go pedal your agend to someone else.

[Denise]

It's ok Michael. I am just getting very nervous about the impending fight brewing (as we can all see coming) and maybe it would be best to just cut out from this thread as I really don't have the energy nor the inclination for more unpleasantness.

I hope you get better soon, Michael.

Helen, I hate to see you leave.  I am SO TIRED of people coming into these speculative, non scientific threads and getting all hard line in the "you guys are wrong" mode.  Honestly, does it hurt them to let us discuss these things?  If they do not like the discussion, they can choose to not read.  

After all, "there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

[Elisabeth]

Anna Anderson wasn't such a good fake. What about the notorious "Dar'ling" letter? Rewatch the Nova episode about Anastasia and get back to me! Handwriting analysis is very subjective - it's not by any stretch of the imagination an exact science. AA was just a very lucky individual: the German police got the so-called definitive "points of identity" all wrong in her case, as well.

[Elisabeth]

Elisabeth, I beg your pardon, BUT according to a nurse at Dalldorf,  "Riddle of Anna Anderson" pgs 10 & 11,

"The nurses at Dalldorf never doubted that FU was Russian.  It wasn't just her Eastern accent or the fact that she spoke foreign languages in her sleep. "She spoke perfect RUSSIAN, like a native," said Erna Bucholz, a former German teacher who had lived in Russia, "not like a foreigner who has learned Russian/"  Nurse Bucholz had been the first to take care of Fraulein Unbekannt at Dalldord and later she recalled an event that had taken place in the summer of  1920:

"During the nightshift, I had special opportunit to converse with er, as generall she could not sleep..... I told her one evening that I came from Russia, talked about the cathedral in Moscow (St. Basil's) and spoke about Russian matters in general.   She nodded and said she knew all this..... I asked her if she could speak Russian.  She answered Yes, whereupon we began to converse in Russian.  She DID NOT speak it faultily. Rather she used whole, complete, connected sentences without any impediments.... I absolutely got the impression that the patient was completely conversant in the Russian language, Russian affairs and especially Russian military matters."

You and Annie can go pedal your agend to someone else.

I have no agenda. I used to think AA could be AN, too. Until the DNA tests AND even more importantly, my contact with real Russians. My own husband laughed outright when he heard an interview with AA on one of my videos. "She's not Russian," he said. "Her accent sounds Polish." AA was speaking ENGLISH at the time.

This nurse at Dalldorf - you don't even know what part of the Russian empire she came from. She could have been from the Baltic states or Russified Poland. We simply do not know. But I do know that every contemporary Moscow-St. Petersburg Russian I have met thinks AA's claims were completely bogus, based on her accent alone!

[Denise]

Elisabeth, it is possible that AA had a Russian accent and spoke good Russian without believing her to be Anasatasia.  Why is it that any time one refutes claims of those debunking AA, it is assumed that it must be because AA was Anastasia?  Not so.  

[jolie]

This thread has been really interesting so JUST IGNORE the disruptors and carry on........please!

(I'm reading along at home like so many others that probably don't post much)

[Denise]

This thread has been really interesting so JUST IGNORE the disruptors and carry on........please!

(I'm reading along at home like so many others that probably don't post much)

Thanks!!  I am very interested in exploring the possiblities of who AA was--whether that person turns out to be FS or someone else.  Just because there are a lot of ambiguous details in the case doesn't mean that it isn't interesting to kick around.  I get very upset when these threads get disrupted by the SAME arguments time and again.  We are all aware of those arguments, but are choosing, as AGRBear says, to think outside the box.

Now, since photos are a dead end, apparently, does anyone happen to know if there are any other available sources discussing FS besides Kurth, Massie and Klier & Mingay?  Those are the only three I have at present.