Anna Anderson - Physical Evidence and DNA

[Penny_Wilson]

Or perhaps Olga A. was the more accurate and honest of the two

You must not impugn people just because they are not Grand Duchesses.  There is nothing at all to suggest that Nurse Bucholz lied, and she gained nothing from her testimony; in fact, there is much more evidence that the Romanov "side" had something to gain by denying Fraulein Unbekannt.

[Denise]

Hi, i just wanted to mention the Baby.  1919 AA had A baby and said so,  in 1919 FS did not.   It would have been brought up somewhere.  I find this a very important discrepancy.  it takes forty weeks to have a child and in that time the body grows.  A baby born to FS would have been recorded, somewhere.  AA admitted to having a child in 1919 is that not relevent here.  i think so.  

Sparrow, if you would like a more in depth discussion of the baby there is a whole thread further down.  

You are correct in that it is a VERY big difference between the two women.  Of course, it is possible that FS miscarried if she were pregnant.  

[sparrow]

I have just reviewed that thread. it was very intersting indeed.  I thank everyone for their information it helps to have a variety of ideas on the subject.  i think had FS had a Baby it would have been disclosed during the trials to validate that AA was FS in favor of the FS supporters.  Because it was not, i believe it to be a sore spot in the side of the FS supporters.  What Motive would the information about the child have been a positive benifit to AA?   When i tell you of myself, i might say for instance i have four children, and i am so and so.  etc.  and this would help you to know me better.  Was AA helping us to understand what had happened since she left Ipatiev?  as best as she could, including the issue of a out of wedlock child.  that is very vulnerable.   She was very open with this issue, even to the point of defending someone she knew to be involved with the murders.  i dont know, but i sure do love to come when i can to read all of the ideas and theories, especially when they remain civil.  I have found it to be a wonderful place to hear both sides of the issue.  I wish only one thing, i wish i knew the whole truth, i hate unfinished business.  lol  

[rskkiya]

I may not speak the English (American) that my grandfather spoke...It is all relative to time.  To say that language doesn't change is totally incorrect.  To say that we have to pay attention to what the Russians think about her accent or otherwise it would seem rude is somewhat ludicrous IMO.

We should be paying careful attention the details and affadavits of those people who knew her before the media feeding frenzy began, it is good chance to look at AA, in sort of pure light, if you get what I am saying, not in the light of biases thrown about by the different factions that have different agendas, in regards to the case.

That is why I am again stating that these affadavits are probably IMO, the most important.  

If a French native came up to me and I said I was fluent in French, then regardless of whether they came from Grenoble, Paris, Normandy, Marseille, we should be able to converse in French, that is IF I could speak French, if I couldn't then I would make monosyllabic responses, or make excuses for my faulty language skills.  Hopefully a Russian native would have the same ability to discern this regardless of the area of Russia, Moscow, Petersburg, Kiev, Minsk, Pinsk. that they came from.

A very good point --But alas in the case of Anastasia N. we have no recordings of her voice.
All we have is hearsay --"She" (FS? AA? AN?) sounded Russian/Polish/Exotic... to whom? What sort of environment are we examining here (my spouse laughs at the way that my accent can "change" when I am very tired or when I have been suddenly woken up)-- no doubt an accent may be misunderstood by someone unfamiliar with the language, or from the remarks muttered under anesthetics (sp) on an operating table...

just a thought
rskkiya

[Penny_Wilson]

Wasn't there some sort of analysis conducted over AA's spoken English?  I think its conclusion was that her English had a degree -- how vague or how pronounced I have no idea -- of Yorkshire in it, which was interesting because Yorkshire was the boyhood home of Sidney Gibbes, the Imperial Children's English tutor.  Gibbes had acquired a more "acceptable" Oxbridge-ish veneer in his adult speech -- but it's an interesting little aside to the language issue, I think.

[AGRBear]

Then there is always someone like myself who minics without realizing what I'm doing.  When I talk to someone with an accent, I end up returning the same accent in the conversation.  I remember the first time my husband heard me do this, he thought was was doing it on purpose.  I wasn't and I don't.  It just happens.

All brains are wired different.

Languages are so complex and, to add to this,  each individual hears then speaks it differently.

German wasn't  just one language, either in the late and early 1900s.  There are many dialects.  My parents' first language was  German  but they couldn't speak to each other because they didn't speak the same dialect, so, they spoke English in our home.

I know in Russia, when the GR clergy desided that "high[lander] German" was the proper German, there was a turmoil because the majority spoke "lowlander German" and "middlelander German".

I wonder which German dialect was taught the Romanov children.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Penny talks about shoe sizes in this quote:

I have only seen the usual stuff.  I tend not to set too much store in the Wingender girls' description of FS.  I think they are a little too "penny-dreadful" to be taken seriously.

Ian Lilburn told me that during the trial, there was evidence entered concerning Franziska's dress and shoe sizes -- I forget from whom this came, though I have an idea it originated from the Wingenders who surrendered the clothing that FS left behind at their residence when she disappeared.  In both cases, the sizes were quite a bit bigger than the sizes Fraulein U wore --  a little enough matter in the case of dress sizes where weight can be gained or lost relatively easily, but shoe sizes are another thing.  One clue that I cannot shake is that Fraulein U wore shoes three sizes smaller than FS's shoes.  Feet can spread out in width with age and various ailments -- like the bunions -- but can they shrink three sizes in the space of a couple of weeks?

Ian also told me that there were several photographs of Franziska that he saw in the course of the trial.  The one that we all know is the one that Pierre Gilliard selected to illustrate his book, and it was the one -- in Ian's opinion -- that was the least clear in presenting its subject.  I don't know what happened to these other photographs of FS.  They might have simply belonged to Felix, with whom Ian spoke on several occasions.  If they were entered into evidence, they have never surfaced.

Ian was kind enough to let us take copies of some Schanzkowsky photos that he got at the trial -- they are the ones that the Nazis took of the family.  I will try and scan them for posting if anyone would like to see them -- but it will take me a couple of days.  I am very behind on tons of stuff!    

The amount of money a family has  doesn't mean the person buying the shoes bought the right size.  My grandfather  wasn't poor and  could afford to buy shoes for his children, however,   one of my aunts, who never liked the size of her feet, always bought her shoes too small.  She ended up with  bunions which were more common then they are, now, because feet size doesn't seem as important these days as wearing size 2 when it should be size 12.  I doubt even my aunt could push her foot into a shoe three sizes to small.  Course, she still might be trying at the age of 86....

AGRBear

PS The one photo of AA certainly shows us a mouth full of teeth and not black stumps.

[helenazar]

The amount of money a family has  doesn't mean the person buying the shoes bought the right size.  My grandfather  wasn't poor and  could afford to buy shoes for his children, however,   one of my aunts, who never liked the size of her feet, always bought her shoes too small.  She ended up with  bunions which were more common then they are, now, because feet size doesn't seem as important these days as wearing size 2 when it should be size 12.  I doubt even my aunt could push her foot into a shoe three sizes to small.  Course, she still might be trying at the age of 86....

Yeah, but would someone buy shoes that were three sizes too large?  

The one photo of AA certainly shows us a mouth full of teeth and not black stumps.

These must be dentures, Bear, since we know that many of AA's teeth were removed at the hospital. Maybe that's why she looks so different in this particular picture - in many of the others she may not have had her "teeth" in  !

[AGRBear]

Is the photo of AA with teeth dated?

Thanks

AGRBear

[helenazar]

Is the photo of AA with teeth dated?

Thanks

AGRBear

I don't think so... I got it off PK's site, but I have also seen it somewhere else, unfortunately can't remember where... it was a while ago. I  just remember thinking when I first saw it how much it looked like the FS picture to me, I even thought that it was another picture of FS until I realized that it was supposed to be AA.

[Denise]

I just double checked PK's site--no date.  It is truly amazing how he has placed pictures of the Dowager Empress, Alexei, Anastasia and Tatiana next to photos of AA.  Just the right angle does give the illusion of family resemblance!!

But it did say that the FS photo was retouched for Gilliard's book (the 3rd one above).  The 2nd one was the cleaned up one used in the newspaper when AA was "exposed" as FS in 1927.

[Denise]

Wasn't there some sort of analysis conducted over AA's spoken English?  I think its conclusion was that her English had a degree -- how vague or how pronounced I have no idea -- of Yorkshire in it, which was interesting because Yorkshire was the boyhood home of Sidney Gibbes, the Imperial Children's English tutor.  Gibbes had acquired a more "acceptable" Oxbridge-ish veneer in his adult speech -- but it's an interesting little aside to the language issue, I think.

I read this too.  It was one of those amazing details that helped convince me that AA really was the lost Grand Duchess Anastasia.  

Of course, after seeing all the other evidence come out, my mind has since changed, but her case still makes AA one of the most interesting people of the 20th century, WHOEVER she was!

[helenazar]

 It is truly amazing how he has placed pictures of the Dowager Empress, Alexei, Anastasia and Tatiana next to photos of AA.  Just the right angle does give the illusion of family resemblance!!

Yes, isn't it amazing? This is why we really can't go by photos, or even descriptions for that matter: everyone sees such different things. It never ceases to amaze me how subjective perception is!

[Denise]

Yes, isn't it amazing? This is why we really can't go by photos, or even descriptions for that matter: everyone sees such different things. It never ceases to amaze me how subjective perception is!

Especially when you consider how grainy many of the old B&W photos are.  There are no crisp details (like the original FS pic above) so it is possible to see almost anything.  Also, many of the photos of AN have been blown up so much it is difficult to see her actual facial definition.  

I wonder if the other photos of FS are in the court transcripts or were returned to the family?  It would be nice to see an actual close up of the real woman.  The blurrinesds of the photo we have makes me think it is a detail of a larger picture which has been distorted through enlargement.

[helenazar]

Especially when you consider how grainy many of the old B&W photos are.  There are no crisp details (like the original FS pic above) so it is possible to see almost anything.  Also, many of the photos of AN have been blown up so much it is difficult to see her actual facial definition.  

I wonder if the other photos of FS are in the court transcripts or were returned to the family?  It would be nice to see an actual close up of the real woman.  The blurrinesds of the photo we have makes me think it is a detail of a larger picture which has been distorted through enlargement.

IMO, even if we had a very clear photo of FS and a very clear photo of AA, people would still see different things, as we witnessed with AA/AN photos, both of whom we had many photos. Some thought that AA looked exactly like AN, others thought she looked nothing like her, and many in between. It just comes down to the fact that we all have different perception... I really don't think having more photos would help.