Author Topic: Did any of the Romanovs survive?  (Read 138488 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #135 on: June 22, 2004, 02:06:42 PM »
Greg:<<Incidentally, of the 103 possible shots, we calculated-based on wounds, statements, memoirs, forensics, and recovered evidence-that something like only 50 or so were fired-half were not, owing to the smoke and the chaos.>>

Penny<< ten minutes>>

There was mention of 103 possible shots by  ten, maybe eleven, shooters.  And, now, I've read  it took "ten minutes" to kill all those people who didn't want to be killed....

Is this really possible?  

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #136 on: June 22, 2004, 02:15:24 PM »
Greg and Penny

Are you telling us the bodies were taken first to the Four Brother's Mines  then taken out of the mines and reburied at the Koptryaki grave?  If so, was it the same night / early morning of 17 July 1918?  

AGBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline CuriousOne

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #137 on: June 22, 2004, 04:11:17 PM »
"Atlantis" issue? Could you tell us where we could find this? Sorry if this is a repeat but I'm new to this discussion.
    Curious One

Offline CuriousOne

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #138 on: June 22, 2004, 06:16:14 PM »
Quote
To Greg and Penny,

4.  -- human memory is simply not very reliable.



My husband graduated from the School of Criminology at UC, and I recall the  one day he came home and was laughing about something that happen in one of his classes.  It seems, one of the profs had set up an event which quickly occured in the class room and those involved left as quickly as they had arrived in class.  The prof's next question was simple, the students were to describe the people who had been involved in the event.  My husband found it amazing as to how many descriptions there were of the  people who were part of the event and, also,   the number of people involved was debated....
    Curious One  

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #139 on: June 28, 2004, 03:16:56 PM »
Atlantis Magazine information can be found on the following URL: http://www.atlantis-magazine.com/

Still reading Fate of the Romanovs by King and Wilson.  Very interesting. And I will have questions.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #140 on: June 28, 2004, 03:30:48 PM »
Quote
To those who have written that they are 'inclined' to accept the DNA results: which DNA results are you referring to?

I should mention that there were actually several American teams that examined the remains.  There was also a group from the University of Colorado that refused to sign off on the conclusions drawn by the Russian Commission.

As far as Maples, Levine, et al are concerned, they admitted that their work was hampered by a lack of time, a lack of facilities, and no medical or dental records by which to form a proper reference to compare the remains.  In other words, they were working entirely under the assurances and instructions from the Russian Government that the remains were the Imperial Family.  From that flimsy assumption, they based their conclusions.  

This gross violation of methodogy is sufficient to invalidate the osteopaleoforensics as it relates to establishing the identity of the Ekaterinburg remains.


There was a "gross violation" of the Koptyaki grave by the hurried process of yanking out bones from a "crime scene".  My husband says I watch too many CSI shows on tv.  I for one am glad the Russian  officals brought in Maples or we might never have known what he and his staff discovered.  And, if they had been allowed proper time,  who knows what else they would have found.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #141 on: July 09, 2004, 12:43:08 PM »
AGRBear,

I agree with you! The excavation was certainly not done under optimal conditions...
Nevertheless I am still waiting for "Rodger" to kindly explain the DNA problems....I don't know if there is any DNA left that we can identify as specifically Marie's or Olga's or Nicholas's alone, to compair with the bones...

Rodger?

R.  

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #142 on: July 09, 2004, 03:51:05 PM »
Did any Russia official explain what the rush was to pull up  the bones  and rush them to where ever it was they placed them for farther inspection and storage?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #143 on: July 09, 2004, 08:41:02 PM »
AGRBear

   A. Advonin and Geli Ryabov were able with the help of others to figure out (on the quiet) where the bodies might have been buried ... They went excavating and found some skulls which they examined on the spot, and then swore an oath to reveal the spot to the world only when they felt that the time was right...

  You say that since the 1980s, you've been reading a lot about all this.....yet I am very surprised that you seem to not have read Massie's "The Romanovs- The Final Chapter." This is all spelled out there...  


Hmmmm. :-/

R.


Offline Abby

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #144 on: July 10, 2004, 08:17:10 AM »
Something that I thought was of note: in one of those outrageous books which tries to prove the Romanovs were rescued, the author brings up an interesting point, which is that Yurovsky is said to be awake for like 72 hours or something (throughout the whole execution/burial/re-burial ordeal) and that it would have been unrealistic.

I don't really think that bears much significance, though.

rskkiya

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #145 on: July 10, 2004, 10:06:57 AM »
Abby,

Good point about Yurovsky...
However, he had to get the remains dealt with and he didn't want to waste any time until it was done...I have been awake for 72 hours in the past and while it certainly doesn't make you the best of company - it is quite possible to fuction... Adrenaline can do "wonderful" things... ::)

R.


Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #146 on: July 10, 2004, 11:45:03 AM »
I agree. Having done it myself, it may explain why some of the actions taken did not make much sense as well as the carelessness...plus all the vodka consumed...
Robert
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #147 on: July 11, 2004, 05:57:48 PM »
Quote
AGRBear

   You say that since the 1980s, you've been reading a lot about all this.....yet I am very surprised that you seem to not have read Massie's "The Romanovs- The Final Chapter." This is all spelled out there...  


Hmmmm. :-/

R.



I have read The Romanovs, The Final Chapter by Robert K. Massie.
A book I recommend to others.

It has been some time since I read the book, so,  I pulled if off my book shelf and flipped the pages.  I am not sure where the entry is to which you are referring.

I did find this:


Quote
AGRBear

    A. Advonin and Geli Ryabov were able with the help of others to figure out (on the quiet) where the bodies might have been buried ... They went excavating and found some skulls which they examined on the spot, and then swore an oath to reveal the spot to the world only when they felt that the time was right...
Hmmmm. :-/

R.



But, I didn't find where it voiced my question which was: Why did the Russians  pull out the bones so  quickly in 1991 and not take a real effort to study the area as if it were a crime scene.  If not a crime scene than a place of historical importance to Russian history.

AGRBear


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Candice

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #148 on: July 12, 2004, 12:24:02 PM »
I read in 'The file on the Tsar' Sokolov identified the bones as human, but modern opinion suggests they came from animals.  They were brought to Europe, but later vanished... So, what bones did they do a DNA on if they vanished?? ???

Offline Abby

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #149 on: July 12, 2004, 04:46:59 PM »
Hi Candice! I beleive you are talking about the bones found by Sokolov. These were different than the bones found in 1979 in a mass grave by Russians Avdonin and Ryabov. When investigator Sokolov arrived at the mine in 1919 he found some bones beleived to be around a bonfire site and put them in a box with some other remains he found, and took the box to Grand Duke Nicholas Nicholaevich (Nicholas II's uncle) but he did not want them. And he took the box to Dowager Empress Marie, but beleiving her son was still alive, she refused to look at anything to do with their death scene. So the box was put in the hands of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and, according to Robert Massie (I am getting all this from "The Final Chapter") they still have the box today. Others say that the box has dissappeared altogether. But Massie says that the Church won't let anyone look in the box, and only a few people have seen it.

These are the bones that "disappeared". DNA tests were conducted on the bones found in 1979-- nine skeletons found in a mass grave in the Koptyaki wood.

Interestingly, if that box does contain human remains from a site apart from the mass grave, they could be the remains of bodies destroyed in a bonfire...Alexei and Anastasia's. But if the church has the box, they should hand it over to investigators!!!