Author Topic: Did any of the Romanovs survive?  (Read 138145 times)

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Offline Antonio_P.Caballer

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #105 on: June 19, 2004, 01:11:41 PM »
Thanks Penny,

I´ll eagerly wait for your or Greg´s comments on this!

I read it not only in Speransky´s(of which i found by miracle a spanish edition from 1929) but also in Von Rathlef-Kleiman´s book.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?Greg King: >
« Reply #106 on: June 19, 2004, 01:46:33 PM »
Greg King: >>The shooters were: Yurovsky; Kudrin; Nikulin; Ermakov; Medvedev; Soames; Netrebin; the two Kabanov brothers; and Lacher.  Of them, Yurovsky, Kudrin, Nikulin, Ermakov, Medvedev, and Netrebin were all ethnic Great Russians; Soames and the two Kabanovs were Balts; Lacher was an Austrian, and the only foreign shooter<<

There are two lists?  The one I listed yesterday and the list you've mentioned.  Or are there others?

The list, of which you appear to have first hand knowledge,  which you and Penny Wilson have found in  records, letters, memoirs from some of these men,  you think /stated  should update / correct previous authors like Radzinsky.....  

[Sorry about mispellings Edward Radzinsky's name in my reply and for any other words then and in the future.]

Since I've not read FATE OF THE ROMANOVS,  I assume all the old information gathered by earlier authors, officals and others hasn't been completely dismissed.  

Perhaps, if there were eleven,  the eleventh that might be aded to your list  was the second Medvedev mentioned on earlier lists....??

Reason I voiced "CHEKA claim" I assume Yourvsky, who was a CHEKA, claimed the credit of the execution,  for the CHEKA.  Did he not?  Far as I know the CHEKA were not just one ethnic group but a host of  different ethnic people who were  revolutionaries.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #107 on: June 19, 2004, 02:08:00 PM »
Antonio __P. Cabiller:  >>
I´ve read that during the days following the murder there were warnings(?) from the bolsheviks , informing that a grand duchess had escaped and that there were many shootings in the city and searchings in hospitals looking for her.<<

In earlier books, there are various claims that the bolsheviks / CHEKAs were looking for members of the  Royal Family who had escaped and trains were stopped and searched.  Summers and Mangold in THE FILE ON THE TSAR talk about various stories / theories  about the escape of one or  escapes of all....

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline _Rodger_

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #108 on: June 19, 2004, 02:08:29 PM »
'Robert Hall' wrote that Goleneisky was a 'CIA' agent.

Where is your proof that he was a CIA agent?

His actions were consistent with that of a classic 'Trest' style double agent.  

WARNING!!!!  This post may be hazardous to one's sense of things.  Read with caution.

Offline _Rodger_

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #109 on: June 19, 2004, 02:13:15 PM »
Penny, you've said a mouthfull too.  If Yurovsky was so inexperienced and naive, why would the famously ruthless, methodical and motivated Bolsheviks have sent someone with such paltry skills and experience to do such an important job such as wiping out the entire Imperial Family?   ::)

Robespierre wasn't so careless when he went after the French Royal Family.  Why would the Bolsheviks, known admireres of the French Revolution, have left anything to chance, if chance is what it was?

Now, on to ballistics.  Is there a significant noise difference between the release of a couple of handgrenades, and some 100 rounds of high calibre bullets fired in an enclosed space?

Guess which would be the louder if the firing was occurring more or less in parallel?

The answer, of course is either a wash or the bullets would be louder, or a greater disturbance.   This is because while with hand grenades a couple of loud 'pops' would be heard, a continual barrage of weapons firing in an enclosed space over a period of a few minutes would probably be a greater disturbance, wouldn't you agree?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by _Rodger_ »
WARNING!!!!  This post may be hazardous to one's sense of things.  Read with caution.

Dashkova

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #110 on: June 19, 2004, 02:26:32 PM »
Brava!, to Penny for her thorough and articulate posts on this thread.

You posts here and your book indicate a strong sense of understanding not only of your subject but of the Russian population.  I do not believe anyone before has bothered to understand the psyche and motivations regarding the average Russian soldier or guard.

Such scholarship is not only commendable but important to this case.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?<<
« Reply #111 on: June 19, 2004, 02:34:48 PM »
rskkiya : >> I am inclined to accept the DNA results and Dr Maple's statements regarding the execution. Surely he's not a Cheka agent<<

I do not know anything about Dr. Maple's. I assume he is not an agent.  My concern is the unknown evidence lost before all this became public  in 1991.

I, also, believe two bodies are missing.  Alexis and one of his sisters.  At this time, I can only assume the  bones  found were of Nicholas II, his wife, some of his children, the others ..... based on information given to us by those involved in the investigation.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

rskkiya

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #112 on: June 19, 2004, 02:50:22 PM »
AGRbear, hello!
I agree with you about the missing bodies - alexie and one of the younger daughters - the generally agreed upon theory ( as I understand it ) is that two bodies were burned in a bonfire...exactly what happened to the charred remains I do not know...dumped? left? consumed by animals? Others here may have a better idea...

Rodger,
Mr G. was a polish agent who escaped to the west  with information for the CIA ( this is all in Massie's "The Romanovs- the Final Chapter" ). He later became a bit delusional, claiming to be the Tsaravich and demanding millions of dollars, pounds, rubles that  he imagined were his right ...He never seemed able to explain his lack of Hemophilia. Generally an odd duck from what little I know.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #113 on: June 19, 2004, 02:53:05 PM »
I did not claim Golienewski was anything. HE did, as he wastrying to get asylum & recompense from the USA for "services rendered".  ! As far as I am concerned, he was a total fraud.
Dig him up and ask HIM to prove that nonsense. Or find his tacky little book, which I have burried here somewhere.

Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline _Rodger_

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #114 on: June 19, 2004, 03:00:14 PM »
To those who have written that they are 'inclined' to accept the DNA results: which DNA results are you referring to?

I should mention that there were actually several American teams that examined the remains.  There was also a group from the University of Colorado that refused to sign off on the conclusions drawn by the Russian Commission.

As far as Maples, Levine, et al are concerned, they admitted that their work was hampered by a lack of time, a lack of facilities, and no medical or dental records by which to form a proper reference to compare the remains.  In other words, they were working entirely under the assurances and instructions from the Russian Government that the remains were the Imperial Family.  From that flimsy assumption, they based their conclusions.  

This gross violation of methodogy is sufficient to invalidate the osteopaleoforensics as it relates to establishing the identity of the Ekaterinburg remains.
WARNING!!!!  This post may be hazardous to one's sense of things.  Read with caution.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #115 on: June 19, 2004, 05:38:49 PM »
While looking in the Masssie book to find information on Dr. Maples,  I found the following pages of 51-53 very interesting.  Massie stated  the Russians were offered one or both of our two primary US government teams on forensic and pathology  plus useage of our labs, instead the Russians chose Flordia U.'s forensic anthropologist Dr. Maples.  Flordia U.  didn't have the capability of doing mitochonrial DNA nor the use of the state-of-the -art equipment used by our own FBI.  Is this true?  If this is true, why did the Russians chose the labs which had less than the best?

I am not saying Maples isn't good at what he does.
Also, Maples apparently had a  good team.  Baden, a former chief medical examiner of New York City; Levin, the codirector with the New York State Police who had idenitifed the remains of  Josef Mengele in Brazil; and, Oaks who Massie claimed is one of our nation's leading hair and fiber specialists, also, from the New York State Police Crime Lab.

AGRBear  
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline _Rodger_

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #116 on: June 19, 2004, 06:08:53 PM »
I don't think competence is the issue.  There is no doubting the skills of Maples and his associates.  There was at least one other American forensics team that had observed the remains, but refused to sign off on their identity.

From my understanding, the job given to the forensics teams was not to identify the remains as that of the Imperial Family, because that was a forgone conclusion, but to confirm individual identities.


WARNING!!!!  This post may be hazardous to one's sense of things.  Read with caution.

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?Greg King: >
« Reply #117 on: June 19, 2004, 06:19:33 PM »
AGRBear-

There is only one authentic list of shooters-again, I refer you to the fact that Radzinsky was working without benefit of several important sources-including the memoirs of Netrebin, who was himself a shooter (thus Netrebin does not appear in Radzinsky's list).

Over the years, as we write in "The Fate of the Romanovs," there have been about 20 perambulations of supposed lists of shooters, all based on guess-work and inference.  We believe, based on the original primary documentation, that ours is correct, since it comes from those involved and from original material, without extrapolation.

Our list includes both Medvedevs-Michael Medvedev, known by his Party name of Kudrin, and Paul Medvedev.  

The execution was detailed, ordered, and orchestrated under the direction of the Ural Regional Soviet, with the participation of the Cheka, but not ordered or run by the latter.

Greg King

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #118 on: June 19, 2004, 06:28:00 PM »
Quote
While looking in the Masssie book to find information on Dr. Maples,  I found the following pages of 51-53 very interesting.  Massie stated  the Russians were offered one or both of our two primary US government teams on forensic and pathology  plus useage of our labs, instead the Russians chose Flordia U.'s forensic anthropologist Dr. Maples.  Flordia U.  didn't have the capability of doing mitochonrial DNA nor the use of the state-of-the -art equipment used by our own FBI.  Is this true?  If this is true, why did the Russians chose the labs which had less than the best?

I am not saying Maples isn't good at what he does.
Also, Maples apparently had a  good team.  Baden, a former chief medical examiner of New York City; Levin, the codirector with the New York State Police who had idenitifed the remains of  Josef Mengele in Brazil; and, Oaks who Massie claimed is one of our nation's leading hair and fiber specialists, also, from the New York State Police Crime Lab.

AGRBear  


We spoke to both Maples and members of his team, and also to Dr. Rodriquez, who was the first tapped to go, about what actually happened and why one team won out over the over.

There was never any thought given to DNA testing on the part of the Americans-that was to be left up to the Russians to work out.

What happened was a conflict between Moscow and Ekaterinburg in regard to the US team.

Cathy Oakes is indeed a world-famous hair and fiber specialist (and is now married to Dr. Levine) but she had little to do in Ekaterinburg as the Moscow team refused to provide her with any samples or even to tell her what their test results had been.

Greg King

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #119 on: June 19, 2004, 06:35:35 PM »
Massie mentioned some of the imposters in The Romanovs, The Final Chapter in Part II.
1.  Nadezhda Ivanova Vasilyeva died  in 1971 in a asylum in Riga
2.  Two women, real names uknown, however, know as Marie and Anastasia who died in the Urals in 1964
3. Filipp G.  Semyonov who was said to have hemophilia and claimed to have been Alexis
4. Marga Boodts who lived in Italy and claimed to be Olga
5. Larisa Feodorovna Tudor died 1927 and buried in Kent, England who claimed she was Tatiana.
6.  A man who  lived in Madrid as Prince Alexis d'Anjou whom some said was Alex Brimeyer.... died in Spain
7. Man, name unknown, claimed to be Alexis and lived in Ulm, Germany
8. Alexi Tammet-Romanov died in 1977 in Vancover, British Columbia
9.  Prince Alexis Romanov who died in 1986 and had lived in Scottsdale, Arizonia
10.  Another Alexis was said to have been assassinated in Chicago by the KGB...
11 & 12.   Two people who claimed to be Alexis and Anastasia met in USA and gained some attention by the press... names unknown
13.  Goleniewski died in 1993..
14. Eugenia Smith lived in Illinois then R.I. and Massie said was still living in 1995
15.  others ???
16. Anna Anderson (Manahan), who always had the most attention, died 1984, and whom many believe was a Polish peasant

Anyone have any other names?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152