Author Topic: The Hollands  (Read 5251 times)

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Offline Prince_Lieven

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The Hollands
« on: December 30, 2005, 11:39:16 AM »
Hi everyone.  ;) I was just thinking today about Elizabeth Woodville, and the power and influence that her queenship brought to her Woodville and Grey relations. I was trying to think of another example of a widow with children marrying into the royal family and thinking of comparing the results. There's the example of Isabelle of Angouleme's Luisingan children at Henry III's court, but a little later, there's the Hollands, descendants of Joan of Kent, Princess of Wales.

1. Thomas Holland (1350-1397), Earl of Kent. He married Alice Fitzalan:
-Alianore Holland (1373-1405). She married Roger Mortimer, Earl of March, and secondly Edward de Cherlton.
-Thomas Holland (1374-1399), Earl of Kent. He married Joan Stafford.
-Joan Holland (1380-1434). She married firstly Edmund, Duke of York, then William Willoughby and finally Henry Bromflete.
-Elizabeth Holland (d. 1422). She married John Neville, Lord Neville.
-Edmund Holland (1382-1407), Earl of Kent. He married Lucia Visconti.
-Margaret Holland (1385-1429/39). She married John Beaufort, Earl of Somerset and secondly Thomas, Duke of Clarence, brother of Henry V.
-Eleanor Holland. She married Thomas de Montacute, Earl of Salisbury.

2. Joan Holland (1350-1384). She married Jean IV of Brittany.

3. John Holland (1358-1399), Duke of Exeter. He married Elizabeth of Lancaster, John of Gaunt's daughter:
-Constance Holland (1387-1437). She married Thomas Mowbray, Earl of Norfolk, and then John Grey.
-Alice Holland (1392-1406). She married Richard de Vere, Earl of Oxford.
-John Holland (1395-1447), Duke of Exeter. He married Anne Stafford, Beatrice of Portugal and thirdly Alice de Montacute.
-Edward Holland (1399-1413).

4. Maud Holland (1359-1391). She married Hugh Courtenay, and secondly Waleran III de Luxembourg, Count of St Pol:
-Jeanne de Luxembourg (d. 1407). She married Antoine, Duke of Limbourg.

As you can see, some of the Hollands made sensational marriages. Was this due to their relationship with Richard II? During his reign, was Thomas Holland, for example, ever referred to - or treated as - 'the King's brother'? Did the Princess of Wales attempt to aid the Hollands advancement?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Prince_Lieven »
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bell_the_cat

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Re: The Hollands
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2005, 01:02:05 PM »
Froissart refers to them as the king's brothers in his account of the Peasants rebellion of 1381. The rebels raided Joan's apartment  in London, causing her great distress. It was at this point that the Hollands quietly slipped away from the King's party, fearing that they would be a target of the mob! It was left to the thirteen year old Richard to calm them down.

So it sounds like they were already pretty unpopular. I think their influence faded after Joan's death and once Richard was old enough to choose his own favourites, e.g. the Duke of Ireland.

Other examples of royal step families:

Mary Queen of Scots' brothers
Victoria's brother and sister




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Hollands
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2005, 01:05:34 PM »
Thanks Bell.  :D Abandoning Richard doesn't sound very heroic. I wonder what Joan thought about that.  :-/ A pity her apartment was raided - still, could have been worse, given what happened to the Savoy. :o

BTW, I think these would be termed 'half' families rather than step, since there was a blood relationship.  ;)

Princesses Alix and Marie of France were half-sisters to Richard I and John.
And of course Edmund Tudor and his siblings were half brothers and sisters to Henry VI.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Hollands
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2005, 01:06:35 PM »
Quote

So it sounds like they were already pretty unpopular. I think their influence faded after Joan's death and once Richard was old enough to choose his own favourites, e.g. the Duke of Ireland.


Odd to term Ireland a dukedom given it's size. Wasn't Richard 'Lord of Ireland' at the time?
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bell_the_cat

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Re: The Hollands
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2005, 01:09:17 PM »
Well Richard only controlled a bit of Ireland so he gave his favourite de Vere the title of Duke of Ireland. It was still a pretty big title for a non royal.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Hollands
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2005, 01:17:08 PM »
Of course. Does anyone know if John Holland was made Duke of Exeter because of his marriage to Elizabeth of Lancaster?
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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bell_the_cat

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Re: The Hollands
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2005, 01:29:08 PM »
No, as I understand it he was awarded the title for helping to get rid of the Duke of Gloucester in 1397.

Both Exeter and his nephew, the Earl of Kent, were executed in 1400 for a plot to get Richard back on the throne (which also resulted in the murder of Richard).

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Hollands
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2005, 01:56:53 PM »
So Henry IV executed his own brother-in-law?  :o :o Wonder what Elizabeth thought about that! She didn't die till 1425.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Prince_Lieven »
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

bell_the_cat

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Re: The Hollands
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2005, 04:38:16 AM »
Quote
So Henry IV executed his own brother-in-law?  :o :o Wonder what Elizabeth thought about that! She didn't die till 1425.


Yes it was "tough" love!

I forgot to mention about the Duke of Ireland - he was Marquess of Dublin before he was "promoted". Froissart says his influence over Richard was so great "if he had declared black was white, the king would not have said to the contrary".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Hollands
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2005, 10:06:42 AM »
Just thinking about Elizabeth, this has prompted me to start a new thread.  ;)
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Alianore

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Re: The Hollands
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2006, 02:27:31 AM »
The Hollands are a pretty interesting family - as you say, they made some fantastic marriages!  They came from nowhere, really - the first prominent member was Sir Robert Holland, who was a retainer of Thomas Earl of Lancaster (executed 1322).  (Supposedly Holland started as one of Lancaster's butlers, but I'm not sure about that!)  He's been described as the Earl's 'junior partner' and Thomas loaded him with land and wealth and arranged his marriage to an heiress (can't remember who offhand).  Unfortunately for Thomas, Holland betrayed him at the battle of Boroughbridge in 1322, which Thomas subsequently lost.....and a few days later, his head too. Holland might have expected to be rewarded for this action, but Edward II was outraged by his betrayal of a man who'd done so much for him, and threw him in prison.  He wasn't released until the regency of Isabella and Mortimer, but was soon after waylaid in a wood and beheaded by a group of Lancaster's followers.  It was his son Thomas who married Joan of Kent and his grandsons who were the half-brothers of Richard II.

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: The Hollands
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2006, 12:54:06 PM »
Thanks Alianore, that's all new to me!  :D :D

BTW, I'm soooo delighted that this board has been buzzing today.  ;D ;D
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Alianore

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Re: The Hollands
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2006, 01:03:12 PM »
The bit of the story I like best is that Holland's murderers sent his head to Lancaster's brother Henry,  who was staying at Waltham Abbey at the time.  Wonder what the abbot made of that!   ;D

Offline lady

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Re: The Hollands
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2006, 05:02:54 AM »
Elizabeth "Bess" Holland, the famous mistress of Thomas duke of Norfolk since 1526 was a member of the familiy? The duchess of Norfolk referred her as "washer of my nursery" may be she came from the minor gentry. Her father was steward to the duke of Norfolk and they were related to Lord Hussey.
Bess Holland was lady-in-waiting to Anne Boleyn.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by lady »

Phillida

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Re: The Hollands
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2006, 02:02:59 AM »
A favourite park of mine:

http://www.touruk.co.uk/london_parks_gardens/holland_park1.htm

I was surprised to see what has become of the house:

http://www.yha.org.uk/hostel/hostelpages/141.html
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Phillida »