Author Topic: Had Alexei not survived  (Read 12508 times)

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Alixz

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Re: Had Alexei not survived
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2006, 05:00:00 PM »
David - thank you.

Why did Nicholas relent and give Kyrill back his titles and rank?

David_Pritchard

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Re: Had Alexei not survived
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2006, 07:50:18 PM »
[size=14]Some additional information from the article The Russian Succession by Brian Purcell Horan:

The laws set forth a straightforward procedure to follow when a baby was born who qualified as a dynast.  Under Articles 135 and 136, the parent immediately had to inform the emperor in writing of the child's name and birth date.  The emperor then would order that the name of the child be entered in the Genealogical Book of the Imperial Family (maintained by the emperor's chancellery) and that the parents be informed that the child was included in the imperial family (Article 137).  It was of course the emperor's decision as to whether a child satisfied the requirements for dynastic membership.  Once he entered the child's name in the Genealogical Book, the issue was closed.  Under Article 142, inclusion of a child's name in the Genealogical Book was proof of membership in the imperial house.  The Genealogical Book determined whose names were included as dynasts on the official court calendar and was the basis for entitlement to pensions and apanages.  The two daughters of the Grand Duke Kirill born before the fall of the monarchy were entered in the Genealogical Book, pursuant to the decree of the Emperor Nicholas II dated 15 July 1907.

Article 183 specifies:  "Permission of the reigning emperor is necessary for the marriage of every member of the Imperial House…".

 Article 36 states:  "Children born of a marriage between a member of the Imperial Family and a person not of corresponding birth, that is, not belonging to a royal or sovereign house, have no right of succession to the Throne."  Article 126 states:  "All persons of imperial blood who are born of a marriage between a person of imperial blood and a person of corresponding birth which marriage was authorized by the reigning emperor are recognized as members of the Imperial House."
 
 "The consort of His Imperial Highness Grand Duke Kirill Wladimirovich is to be styled Grand Duchess Victoria Feodorovna, with the predicate of Imperial Highness, and the daughter born of the marriage of Grand Duke Kirill Wladimirovich with Grand Duchess Victoria Feodorovna, named Maria in holy baptism, is to be recognized as a Princess of the Imperial Blood, with the predicate of Highness belonging to great-grandchildren of an Emperor."

 At the time of the 1907 decree, the only child born of the marriage was H.H. Princess Maria Kirillovna of Russia.  Later two other children were born, H.H. Princess Kira of Russia and H.H. Prince Wladimir of Russia.  As stated before, in July 1918, following the murders of Nicholas II and of the only son and the only brother of Nicholas II, Grand Duke Kirill automatically became head of the dynasty, by operation of Article 53.  Article 53 states:  "On the demise of an emperor, his heir accedes to the Throne by virtue of the law of succession itself, which confers this right upon him.  The accession of an emperor to the Throne is counted from the day of the demise of his predecessor."  Thus, when the Grand Duke Kirill became head of the dynasty in July 1918 (or emperor, in monarchist reckoning), his children (Maria, Kira and the 11 month old Wladimir) were advanced to grand ducal rank by automatic operation of law.  Article 146 bestows the titles of grand duke or grand duchess on the children and grandchildren of an emperor.  On 31 August/13 September 1924, as head of the dynasty, Grand Duke Kirill took the title of Emperor and formally bestowed upon his 7-year-old son Wladimir the title of Grand Duke-Tsesarevich. The Russian title of grand duke is, like that of tsar, one of the most venerable titles of the Russian monarchy.  Until 1886, all male dynasts were grand dukes.  In 1886, however, there were so many male dynasts that the succession appeared secure and Emperor Alexander III felt that he could safely limit the grand ducal title to the sons and grandsons of emperors, giving to more distant dynasts the title of Prince of the Imperial Blood (Prince of Russia).  
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David_Pritchard

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Re: Had Alexei not survived
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2006, 07:51:43 PM »
Quote
David - thank you.

Why did Nicholas relent and give Kyrill back his titles and rank?

Pressure from other members of the Imperial House on the emperor.

Alixz

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Re: Had Alexei not survived
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2006, 08:53:46 AM »
The most pressure coming from Kyrill's mother Marie Pavlovna???

So, if Nicholas could then be pressured into restoring Kyrill's rank and titles, etc, you still don't think that he could have been pressured into skipping him in favor of Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich?

Look at Alesander I who skipped his brother Constantine in favor of Nicholas Pavlovich who became Nicholas I? And that was in 1825, not even 30 years since the laws were enacted.


And really up until Nicholas I, the throne had not passed directly to the male sons of any heir.  The coveted "laws of succession" were only in effect from late 1700 to early 1900, or just about 110 years.  In the over all scheme of things and the length of the dynasty, that was a blink of an eye.

I know that you like to deal in fact and not in "What if..."

I guess that I have issues with "Ducky", just as Alix did.  But the fact that I think she was a schemeing social climber who re-wrote her part in history during the final teetering of the dynasty( A Fatal Passion by Sullivan) has nothing to do with anything.

Thank you again for taking the time and effort to clarify what is as opposed to what if.

Alixz

David_Pritchard

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Re: Had Alexei not survived
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2006, 11:32:51 AM »
Dear Alixz,

I will answer a few more of your questions to the best of my ability.

Aliixz Q: So, if Nicholas could then be pressured into restoring Kyrill's rank and titles, etc, you still don't think that he could have been pressured into skipping him in favor of Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich?
 

There are actually great differences between the two situations. According to the Fundamental Law, the emperor had an option to restore the titles and rank to his cousin Kyril. To skip over a dynast in favour of another dynast was in direct violation of the Fundamental Law.

Aliixz Q: Look at Alesander I who skipped his brother Constantine in favor of Nicholas Pavlovich who became Nicholas I? And that was in 1825, not even 30 years since the laws were enacted.

Konstantin removed himself from the succession because he did not want to leave his lifestyle in Warsaw to be emperor. Unfortunately his choice was kept secret for much too long causing enormous trouble for his younger brother Nikolai I.

Aliixz statement: I guess that I have issues with "Ducky", just as Alix did.  But the fact that I think she was a schemeing social climber who re-wrote her part in history during the final teetering of the dynasty( A Fatal Passion by Sullivan) has nothing to do with anything.

Victoria Melita was born a Princess of Great Britain and Ireland & a Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, her mother was a Grand Duchess of Russia, her father the Duke of Edinburgh, her Grandfather was Emperor of Russia and her Grandmother was the Queen of Great Britain and Ireland, Empress of India and Queen of the Territories Beyond the Seas. How much social climbing could the woman possibly achieve considering that she was born on the top rung of the ladder? Surely she had a grander start than Alix of Hesse.

David
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by David_Pritchard »

Alixz

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Re: Had Alexei not survived
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2006, 02:29:53 PM »
David, it does seem that she had a grander start, but I feel that she wanted the one thing that Alix had that she didn't.  The top rung.

Remember that her mother, Marie Alexandrovna was a very proud woman and was only not in line for the throne since she was a woman.

Ducky, could realize her mother's dreams by marrying Kyrill and steping into the highest place in the land.

Also, the tension between Alix and Ducky was enormous because of Ducky's divorce from Ernie.  With Marie Alexandrovna as her mother and Marie Pavlovna as her mother in law, imagine the encouragement she would have had to succeed to Empress as neither of them ever could.

We know that Marie Pavlovna machinated behind the scenes and caused all sorts of trouble with gossip and whispers.

We know that Marie Alexandrovna felt herself to be above Queen Vistoria in presedence.  What a coup for these two very ambitions ladies to see their beloved children on the throne of Russia.

Also, I know that Ducky and Missy were supposed to be close, but can you imagine Ducky taking precedence over her sister?  Just the Queen of Romania, not the Empress of all the Russias.

Robert_Hall

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Re: Had Alexei not survived
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2006, 03:52:56 PM »
Alixz, in theory, Nicholas could, as autocrat  change the laws of succession. However, he would have one hell of a family feud on his hands if he did.
If he wanted to, he could have written  totally new  "Fundamental Law".
To do so would have required more will power and determination than he possessed. Also, support for such a change, which would be non-existant. The scenario for disaster would just have been moved up a few years and  the fall of the monarchy would be even more self-inflicted. IMO.

David_Pritchard

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Re: Had Alexei not survived
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2006, 04:26:11 PM »
Dear Alixz,

All you have done is point out the inadequecies of Aleksandra as empress, Victoria Melita as empress would have had the strong support of her mother Maria Aleksandrovna and her mother-in-law Maria Pavlovna Starshy. Aleksandra had no family support and no inclination to be a proper Russian empress.

What all this proves is that the Fundamental Law stiffled the more capable family members from taking the Throne from those with a senior claim but lesser abilities. Imagine if Vladimir Aleksandrovich and Maria Pavlovna had come to power instead of Aleksander III and Maria Fedorovna, how history might have been different. Could anyone imagine that an Emperor Vladimir, the head of the Russian Navy for many years, would go to war with Japan in 1904 in such an unprepared manner? That would have meant that Kyril and Victoria would have come to the Throne in 1909. This would have spared Russia from the Nikolai II and Aleksandra slow moving train wreck and might have averted the Revolution.

Alixz

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Re: Had Alexei not survived
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2006, 06:22:25 AM »
Are we assuming that Vladimir Alexandrovich was more prepared to be an Emperor than Alexander III?
That part of the rule of succession would have had to be by- passed first.  Or are we going with AlexanderIII giving the crown to his brother instead of one of his sons?  I would imagine that Dagmar would have been right in there agitating for Michael if we are going to by-pass Nicky.

Both Dagmar and Marie Pavlovna had similar qualifications both socially and politically so as Empress both would have done a similar job.

Kyrill was more prepared and stronger that Nicholas?? Most anybody would have been stronger and more prepared that Nicholas.

However, would Kryill have been able to marry Ducky as late as 1902 after her divorce from Ernie?  Wouldn't he (in our sceniario) have to have married somewhat younger and someone who was not divorced?

And while you are right that I appeared to have pointed out the inadequecies of Alix as Empress, what I was trying to do was show that Ducky would have had too strong a backing from two medlesome women who had the desire to be Empress themselves.  She might have found herself in a worse position of battling both her mother and mother-in-law for the right of precedence and the right to form her own "younger" court.

However Ducky was stronger that Alix in social situations and appeared to have more self confidence.  She also would not have had a hemophiliac heir.

All in all a most intersesting supposition.  Thank you both, David and Robert for a stimulating discussion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Alixz »

Robert_Hall

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Re: Had Alexei not survived
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2006, 10:24:07 AM »
I do not think Ducky would have fought a rtight of precedence with her mother  & M-I-L. Neither was an Empress Dowager.
David, may I ask why 1909 ?  Georgi [who admittedly died in 1899] and Michael would have still been before the Vladimirs.
IMO if,[and it is a huge IF] N2 had changed the Law, it would have been the same as he did at his abdication i.e. in favour of Michael, who in any case declined to accept the crown/throne/mess. Also I think it was far too late to save the situation, no matter how capable a successor would have been.

Alixz

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Re: Had Alexei not survived
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2006, 05:00:52 PM »
I think 1909 because that was when Vladimir Alexandrovich died.  We are assuming here that Alexander III would have skipped his own sons and left the throne to his brother Vladimir, but since Marie Pavlovna did not convert to Orthodoxy, she would not have been able to become Empress.

Doesn't that mean that her children would not be able to inherit?  I am always confused between the Fundemental Laws and the Church Laws.  Did Alexander II accept Marie Pavlovna's children as dynasts?  Is that why they were in the line of succession even though their mother did not convert?

Also, I can't imagine Minnie letting AIII skip her sons in favor of the Vladimirivichi.

Would Vladimir be a better choice than Nicholas Alexandrovich?  We know that Marie Pavlova would have been a better social consort instead of Alix.

But wasn't Vladimir seen as cruel and also a little too social?