Archduchess Sophie,mother of Franz Josef

[Yseult]

I don´t remember where, but I believe it was in "Reluctant Empress" by Hammann, I have read that Sophie suffered a lot when she was a young and charming princess and she knew she was to marry Franz Karl. Her old nanny was so worried, cause Sophie was in deep sorrow and crying all the nights. So, the old nanny, who really loved tenderly the princess, tried to find support for the young Sophie speaking with queen Karoline. But Karoline said nothing but "What do you want?The entire issue was a choice made by the Congress of Vienna!" (I´m not quoting exactly, but working from memory...).

When Sophie realized there was not a way out from the engagedment with Franz Karl, the poor little thing was strong enough to say: "I´m determined to be happy...and I will be".

This purely emotional reaction from Sophie always shocked me. She grew up knowing well her duty as a princess. And Franz Karl was not a ugly man; he had a simple mind and he had not character, but he was a gentle prince. Above all, he was the son of an emperor and also a pressumptive heir of his elder brother, the epilectic and mental retarded Ferdinand. I can understand Ludovica suffered a lot because she was in love with prince Miguel of Portugal and she was forced into a marriage with a cousin, Max, who frankly told her he has in love with a common woman and he was to marry her following the orders of his father, Duke Pius. But Sophie was not in love with anyone...

[MarieCharlotte]

I can understand Ludovica suffered a lot because she was in love with prince Miguel of Portugal and she was forced into a marriage with a cousin, Max, who frankly told her he has in love with a common woman and he was to marry her following the orders of his father, Duke Pius. But Sophie was not in love with anyone...

King Max and Duke Wilhelm, Maximilian's grandfather, decided that Max and Ludovica had to marry. Pius didn't care much about his son and, above all, he didn't have to decide anything concerning his son Max who was educated in Munich where the king, who was his godfather, looked after him.

[Yseult]

Thanks, Marie! I was working from memory, as I said, and memory is so frail (add to this that I have not the impressive knowledge about the Wittelsbach that you have ).

But, thinking on this, I can understand Ludovica´s pain, but it´s quite strange to me the emotial reaction of Sophie against her engagedment to Franz Karl.

[ilyala]

Thanks, Marie! I was working from memory, as I said, and memory is so frail (add to this that I have not the impressive knowledge about the Wittelsbach that you have ).

But, thinking on this, I can understand Ludovica´s pain, but it´s quite strange to me the emotial reaction of Sophie against her engagedment to Franz Karl.

maybe it was the reaction of an intelligent woman knowing she was going to marry a 'simple' man, someone who would never understand her. maybe inside she dreamt she'd meet her prince someday and she knew franz karl wasn't it.

i for one would cry to be forced into a marriage i don't want. no matter how gentle the man is, if i don't love him it's torture.

[MarieCharlotte]

At the Bavarian court, the young princesses weren't allowed to read books containing love stories. In King Max I.'s opinion his daughters would start dreaming about a perfect man and a great love while reading this. But as they would have to take the husband they were given by their father, they shouldn't have any illusions about love.

[Yseult]

At the Bavarian court, the young princesses weren't allowed to read books containing love stories. In King Max I.'s opinion his daughters would start dreaming about a perfect man and a great love while reading this. But as they would have to take the husband they were given by their father, they shouldn't have any illusions about love.

But...the young ones didn´t need  these books to know well that some princesses really had found love stories I imagine that Sophie knew about the romantic relationship between her older sister the duchess of Leuchtenberg and Eugene, for example...

[MarieCharlotte]

But...the young ones didn´t need  these books to know well that some princesses really had found love stories I imagine that Sophie knew about the romantic relationship between her older sister the duchess of Leuchtenberg and Eugene, for example...

Of course she knew about the harmonious relationship between Auguste and Eugène. But this marriage was nothing but Napoléon's wish. So it was just a happy coincidence that the couple came along so well with each other.

[Maria_Pavlovna]

Sophie was indeed a beautiful young woman when she was a teenager.

I don't know much about her, i''ll get only Elisabeth (Sissi)'s point of view most of the time (I found Elisabeth to be a nasty lady!) and i don't think Sophie was nasty, possibly head-strong and trying to do the best for her son and family, but not snobby like Sissi. For like I said before that I don't know that much about Sophie. so i can't judge her.

[Veronika]

[britt.25]

Archduke Franz Karl as young man (he wasn´t bad looking, I think but in the older years his face became a bit strange and longish...

[ilyala]

...he was probably a typical habsburg. they weren't very good looking

[britt.25]

I think it´s mostly because of the close family relationship. For example was the second wife of emperor Franz II./ I., Maria Theresia of Neaples, Franz´s cousin, a daughter of Maria Karoline, daughter of empress Maria Theresia, whereas Franz was the son of Maria Theresia´s son emperor Leopold II. (only one example). But it is strange that there are always examples, where single members of the family do not have this typical "Habsburg face" (or at least not so strongly, I remember especially the daughters of Philipp II. by Elisabeth Valois, but there are also other cases) but in general that looking passed so many generations. But in my view Franz Karl´s looking was not that longish like that of his brother Ferdinand, he was even much worse in looking. When Ferdinand was young there are quite nice paitings, but when I once saw a late photography of him I was really shocked . When you look at the children of Franz Karl and Sophie is obvious that all look somewhere different, but Ludwig Victor is mostly "Hapsburg" of all (and Maximilian of Mexico also a bit), but Franz Joseph´s features are better, they may also come from his Wittelsbach side?! Even when I don´t see any direct resemblence to his mother, Archduchess Sophie.

[MarieCharlotte]

If you look at the longish faces of Emperor Franz and his second wife Maria Teresa of Naples, it is not surprising that also most of their children had unbelievable longish faces - but there are different extents among the siblings. For example Ferdinand (but he was disabled!) and Maria Anna had extremely longish faces, but Marie Louise and Clémentine had "normal" ones and were quite beautiful.

I've once seen a portrait of Archduke Franz Karl when he was a little boy of about 5 years. He looked so ugly and his face was that longish! When I read in books about the time of the engagement of Sophie and Franz Karl, the Archduke has always been described as not good looking and having a longish face. Maybe the painters shortened it a bit in their portraits to please him, but above all the Emperor.

[britt.25]

Well, the Kniehuber portrait(s) make(s) him quite "good" looking in my opinion, but maybe it´s a bit idealized? On Kniehuber -litographies I find almost all people quite allright in their looks...I must say...In my opinion Ferdinand I. was the worst concerning looks. The photo I once saw was really shocking. (I think it was in a book about Metternich) Do you know by which artist the portrait of Archduke Franz Karl as a child, which you mentioned, was made? Sometimes it really depends on the portraits/artists, how the people look like, but it´s easy to imagine that he looked a bit strange, and was not very nice! Yes, Empress Marie Louise was really quite beautiful, if you compare her with other realtives, also some of her uncles had an extreme "Hapsburg- face" (Karl of Teschen etc., whose sons were a lot like that as well even if Henriette of Nassau looked completely different...)
Too much off- topic, I think, sorry

[MarieCharlotte]

Do you know by which artist the portrait of Archduke Franz Karl as a child, which you mentioned, was made?

I'm sorry. I saw it some months ago at the Hofmobiliendepot at Vienna, but I don't know the artist.

(Let's do a little bit more off-topic here:  In my opinion the only son of Archduchess Maria Christine, King Alfonso XIII. of Spain, also had a "Habsburg-face". He was a descendant of Archduke Karl, too.)