Author Topic: One thing I find odd  (Read 109199 times)

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Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #150 on: October 26, 2006, 03:17:54 PM »
The story about the train being stopped and searched in late 1918, by Red Army soldiers looking for Anastasia is, indeed, in File on the Tsar (p343 my copy). It comes from a testimony submitted in a formal letter by Count Bonde to the Anastasia hearings on 15th October 1952. The testimony reads:

"In my capacity as the chief of the Swedish Red Cross mission in Siberia in 1918 I travelled in a privte railway car.  At some place, the name of which has escaped my memory, the train was stopped and searched in order to find the Grand Duchess Anastasia, daughter of Tsar Nicholas II.  The grand duchess was, however, not aboard the train.  Nobody knew where she had gone."

Phil Tomaselli 

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #151 on: October 26, 2006, 04:04:31 PM »

None of these other 'survivors' tie in with the concrete finds that we have and so therefore these 'survivors' don't prove anything...


What concrete finds are those?

There are NO "concrete finds" as far as the two missing are concerned.

That's why they're still missing.

Until that day finally comes when bones of the two missing have actually been found and properly identified... whether you like or not... anything is possible.


Concrete finds- the bodies of Nicholas, Alexandra, 3 GDs and the three servants.

Therefore no 'survivors' purporting to be them could have been telling the truth.  Correct?

Concrete find- there are two bodies missing.

No two survivors have shown up purporting to be a missing GD and Alexei who escaped together, and no purported survivor claiming to be a missing GD has ever claimed that Alexei also escaped but perished later from haemophilia.  No survivor claiming to be a GD has ever mentioned anything about Alexei being with them too.  So that doesn't tie in with the missing bodies, does it?

Therefore, no one survivor has been able to support the forensic evidence we have at this point in time, as I said.

Rachel
xx

Actually, this is untrue. In one of those strange twists of fate, a claimant who is certainly not one of the grand duchesses, though she claimed to be Anastasia, was the only claimant I'm aware of who correctly identified the number of missing bodies from the murder of the Imperial Family. If you read Eugenia Smith's "memoirs" carefully, you will see that, while she got many facts wrong, she got several crucial facts right.

Chief among the correct ones: that a grand duchess and one other body were removed from the truck that left the Ipatiev House after the murders - said truck was stuck in a woodsy area. There are several critical pieces of information that were not known until publication of the Yurovsky Note in the 1990's contained in that - and this from a book published in English in the mid 1960's! These are - two bodies missing - one a grand duchess - the truck carrying the bodies broke down/got stuck - the breakdown happened in the woods.

I am not suggesting that ES was GDA or even a Romanov. I am not saying there were long term survivors. But, I have always found it fascinating that her book is the only one that got these things right.

Offline Annie

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #152 on: October 26, 2006, 04:09:06 PM »
The story about the train being stopped and searched in late 1918, by Red Army soldiers looking for Anastasia is, indeed, in File on the Tsar (p343 my copy). It comes from a testimony submitted in a formal letter by Count Bonde to the Anastasia hearings on 15th October 1952. The testimony reads:

"In my capacity as the chief of the Swedish Red Cross mission in Siberia in 1918 I travelled in a privte railway car.  At some place, the name of which has escaped my memory, the train was stopped and searched in order to find the Grand Duchess Anastasia, daughter of Tsar Nicholas II.  The grand duchess was, however, not aboard the train.  Nobody knew where she had gone."

Phil Tomaselli 

Then again, there were 'testimonies' of men who claimed to have seen her in a bed in a house across the street from the Ipatiev house, and even in a cart on the grounds of the Romanian Embassy, or was it the German? Either  way, they weren't true. So those people were either lying or mistaken. The train story sure sounds like a made up plant, it's nowhere else, whenever you have only one person's recollection and no evidence you do have to wonder.


Offline Annie

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #153 on: October 26, 2006, 04:12:33 PM »


 I'm aware of who correctly identified the number of missing bodies from the murder of the Imperial Family. If you read Eugenia Smith's "memoirs" carefully, you will see that, while she got many facts wrong, she got several crucial facts right.

Chief among the correct ones: that a grand duchess and one other body were removed from the truck that left the Ipatiev House after the murders - said truck was stuck in a woodsy area. There are several critical pieces of information that were not known until publication of the Yurovsky Note in the 1990's contained in that - and this from a book published in English in the mid 1960's! These are - two bodies missing - one a grand duchess - the truck carrying the bodies broke down/got stuck - the breakdown happened in the woods.

I am not suggesting that ES was GDA or even a Romanov. I am not saying there were long term survivors. But, I have always found it fascinating that her book is the only one that got these things right.

That's interesting, I never knew that! But we do know that ES was not AN and even admitted it, so this is living proof that a faker can get things right and still be a fraud. She must have had more informed info feeders than AA did. Wonder why she gave up so easily?

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #154 on: October 26, 2006, 04:19:56 PM »
No two survivors have shown up purporting to be a missing GD and Alexei who escaped together, and no purported survivor claiming to be a missing GD has ever claimed that Alexei also escaped but perished later from haemophilia.  No survivor claiming to be a GD has ever mentioned anything about Alexei being with them too.  So that doesn't tie in with the missing bodies, does it?




That is a big factor there, good point. Since both were 'missing' why did no claimant of either ever mention that the other was, at least in the beginning, with them? The answer is of course obvious, because all  of the claimants were lying, they weren't really there so they didn't know the other was missing too, but this is yet another gaping hole in their stories.



There is, in fact, a sizeable number of brother/sister claimant pairs whose cases are rarely discussed on this board.  There was also a US Grand Duchess claimant who was said to have made the deliberate choice not to make any public claims... in order to keep people from looking for the brother that she knew had also survived.  That claimant, too, whose story is hidden in the shadows of two other more famous GD claimants, has never been discussed on this board.

jk

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #155 on: October 26, 2006, 04:29:07 PM »


 I'm aware of who correctly identified the number of missing bodies from the murder of the Imperial Family. If you read Eugenia Smith's "memoirs" carefully, you will see that, while she got many facts wrong, she got several crucial facts right.

Chief among the correct ones: that a grand duchess and one other body were removed from the truck that left the Ipatiev House after the murders - said truck was stuck in a woodsy area. There are several critical pieces of information that were not known until publication of the Yurovsky Note in the 1990's contained in that - and this from a book published in English in the mid 1960's! These are - two bodies missing - one a grand duchess - the truck carrying the bodies broke down/got stuck - the breakdown happened in the woods.

I am not suggesting that ES was GDA or even a Romanov. I am not saying there were long term survivors. But, I have always found it fascinating that her book is the only one that got these things right.

That's interesting, I never knew that! But we do know that ES was not AN and even admitted it, so this is living proof that a faker can get things right and still be a fraud. She must have had more informed info feeders than AA did. Wonder why she gave up so easily?

I have found no evidence that ES actually admitted she was not GDA. I do know she was asked several times if she wanted DNA testing after the bodies were discovered and that she declined. The most reasonable explanation for this is that she knew that she would not pass the test.

I'm finding it very difficult to ascribe her correct information to mere coincidence. I would tend to agree that the source of her correct information must have been much better than AA's. My own theory is that either she had access to a very early manuscript written by a rescuer OR that she was given information by the Soviets who had access to the Yurovsky Note.

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #156 on: October 26, 2006, 04:38:33 PM »


 I'm aware of who correctly identified the number of missing bodies from the murder of the Imperial Family. If you read Eugenia Smith's "memoirs" carefully, you will see that, while she got many facts wrong, she got several crucial facts right.

Chief among the correct ones: that a grand duchess and one other body were removed from the truck that left the Ipatiev House after the murders - said truck was stuck in a woodsy area. There are several critical pieces of information that were not known until publication of the Yurovsky Note in the 1990's contained in that - and this from a book published in English in the mid 1960's! These are - two bodies missing - one a grand duchess - the truck carrying the bodies broke down/got stuck - the breakdown happened in the woods.

I am not suggesting that ES was GDA or even a Romanov. I am not saying there were long term survivors. But, I have always found it fascinating that her book is the only one that got these things right.

That's interesting, I never knew that! But we do know that ES was not AN and even admitted it, so this is living proof that a faker can get things right and still be a fraud. She must have had more informed info feeders than AA did. Wonder why she gave up so easily?

There is another little-known GD claimant case, never before discussed on this board, that includes the claim that Eugenia Smith was not the true author of her book.... that it was, in fact, the biography of another GD claimant whose story had been falsely credited to Smith.

jk

Offline lexi4

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #157 on: October 26, 2006, 06:21:02 PM »
I found this interesting. This is from the book Sisu by Oskari Tokor.
"The trip back was made moer rapidly - but I almost lost my youngest son. Late in the night, beyond Perm, the train was stopped at some wayside station and surrounded by Red militia. They searched the train with great thoroughness. The passengers learned that they expected to find the Czarevitch Alexei, the Czar's 13-year-old son, who had escaped from Jekaterinburg!
"My son was sharing a compartment with our imterpreter. As soon as the militia saw the boy the pounced on him. He was the same age, and the same height, and - they declared - he looked the same as teh Czarevithch. The interpreter tried to assure them tha the boy was Finnish and did not even speak  a word of Russian, but no one would believe him. Finally the interpreter remembered that the Czarevitch was said to be lame, and he came up with his last trump. My son was marched up and down the corridor, and everyone watched closely to see if he limped. When the militia were convinced he walked straight on his own two feet, they let him go.
"Every compartment, every corner, of the train was searched, and the pillows and mattresses so thoroughly bayonetted that not a mouse could have remained alive in them. Perhaps the son of Czar Nicholas II succeeded in escaping. Perhaps he remained somewhere among the living when his family was executed behind the tall plank fence surrounding the villa in Jekaterinburg."

pp. 176-177.
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #158 on: October 26, 2006, 10:23:40 PM »
Eugenia Smith also identified Michael Goleniewski, a Polish defector, as her brother Alexei. Goleniewski, in turn, asserted that all of the Imperial Family had survived. I think he later brought over a "Maria" from Poland.
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Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #159 on: October 27, 2006, 03:30:55 AM »
Annie wrote:

"Then again, there were 'testimonies' of men who claimed to have seen her in a bed in a house across the street from the Ipatiev house, and even in a cart on the grounds of the Romanian Embassy, or was it the German? Either  way, they weren't true. So those people were either lying or mistaken. The train story sure sounds like a made up plant, it's nowhere else, whenever you have only one person's recollection and no evidence you do have to wonder."

On the contrary.  Though it's possible that some kind of mistake has been made, I see no reason to doubt the author's integrity, nor does the lack of other witnesses count against the story.  After all, how many other, non-Russian and independent (and able to get out of the country) witnesses were there likely to be on a train in the Ekaterinberg area in the middle of 1918?  The Swedish Red Cross were responsible for looking after the interests of German/Austrian Prisoners of War in Russia and, as many were held in Siberia, I'd expect an official to be moving around in the general area.  He may have been mistaken about the reason that the train was stopped, it may have been a deliberate disinformation attempt by the Reds or they may just have misunderstood themselves why they were ordered to stop the train.  But I wouldn't doubt that the event never occurred.

Phil Tomaselli

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #160 on: October 27, 2006, 10:21:55 AM »
Actually, this is untrue. In one of those strange twists of fate, a claimant who is certainly not one of the grand duchesses, though she claimed to be Anastasia, was the only claimant I'm aware of who correctly identified the number of missing bodies from the murder of the Imperial Family. If you read Eugenia Smith's "memoirs" carefully, you will see that, while she got many facts wrong, she got several crucial facts right.

Chief among the correct ones: that a grand duchess and one other body were removed from the truck that left the Ipatiev House after the murders - said truck was stuck in a woodsy area. There are several critical pieces of information that were not known until publication of the Yurovsky Note in the 1990's contained in that - and this from a book published in English in the mid 1960's! These are - two bodies missing - one a grand duchess - the truck carrying the bodies broke down/got stuck - the breakdown happened in the woods.

I am not suggesting that ES was GDA or even a Romanov. I am not saying there were long term survivors. But, I have always found it fascinating that her book is the only one that got these things right.

Actually if Eugenia Smith claimed all this, she only got part of it, a very small part, right. It's true the truck broke down in the early morning hours of July 17 on its way to the Koptiaki forest. However, it broke down not in the wooded area but on a muddy road near a grade crossing (No. 184) where there was a guardhouse. According to Yurovsky's account, all the bodies were unloaded from the truck in order to lighten it sufficiently so that it could be extracted from the mud with the help of railroad ties taken from the guardhouse.

A handful of recent, non-academic historians, the most prominent among them Edvard Radzinsky, have speculated that this is when the bodies of Anastasia and Alexei "disappeared," and that in the confusion, Yurovsky didn't notice. But that's all this is, a speculation.
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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #161 on: October 27, 2006, 10:27:58 AM »
Actually, this is untrue. In one of those strange twists of fate, a claimant who is certainly not one of the grand duchesses, though she claimed to be Anastasia, was the only claimant I'm aware of who correctly identified the number of missing bodies from the murder of the Imperial Family. If you read Eugenia Smith's "memoirs" carefully, you will see that, while she got many facts wrong, she got several crucial facts right.

Chief among the correct ones: that a grand duchess and one other body were removed from the truck that left the Ipatiev House after the murders - said truck was stuck in a woodsy area. There are several critical pieces of information that were not known until publication of the Yurovsky Note in the 1990's contained in that - and this from a book published in English in the mid 1960's! These are - two bodies missing - one a grand duchess - the truck carrying the bodies broke down/got stuck - the breakdown happened in the woods.

I am not suggesting that ES was GDA or even a Romanov. I am not saying there were long term survivors. But, I have always found it fascinating that her book is the only one that got these things right.

Actually if Eugenia Smith claimed all this, she only got part of it, a very small part, right. It's true the truck broke down in the early morning hours of July 17 on its way to the Koptiaki forest. However, it broke down not in the wooded area but on a muddy road near a grade crossing (No. 184) where there was a guardhouse. According to Yurovsky's account, all the bodies were unloaded from the truck in order to lighten it sufficiently so that it could be extracted from the mud with the help of railroad ties taken from the guardhouse.

A handful of recent, non-academic historians, the most prominent among them Edvard Radzinsky, have speculated that this is when the bodies of Anastasia and Alexei "disappeared," and that in the confusion, Yurovsky didn't notice. But that's all this is, a speculation.

It is speculation, but it is probably the most plausible explanation as to why the grave was two bodies short.

I was referring to the ES book from memory, as I don't own a copy. Any errors made in my relating the information are mine. I do clearly remember her having several pertinent facts correct, information that was not corroborated until the Yurovsky Note and the opening of the grave. In particular, the explanation about two bodies missing.

Offline stepan

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #162 on: October 27, 2006, 06:38:25 PM »


 I'm aware of who correctly identified the number of missing bodies from the murder of the Imperial Family. If you read Eugenia Smith's "memoirs" carefully, you will see that, while she got many facts wrong, she got several crucial facts right.

Chief among the correct ones: that a grand duchess and one other body were removed from the truck that left the Ipatiev House after the murders - said truck was stuck in a woodsy area. There are several critical pieces of information that were not known until publication of the Yurovsky Note in the 1990's contained in that - and this from a book published in English in the mid 1960's! These are - two bodies missing - one a grand duchess - the truck carrying the bodies broke down/got stuck - the breakdown happened in the woods.

I am not suggesting that ES was GDA or even a Romanov. I am not saying there were long term survivors. But, I have always found it fascinating that her book is the only one that got these things right.

That's interesting, I never knew that! But we do know that ES was not AN and even admitted it, so this is living proof that a faker can get things right and still be a fraud. She must have had more informed info feeders than AA did. Wonder why she gave up so easily?

There is another little-known GD claimant case, never before discussed on this board, that includes the claim that Eugenia Smith was not the true author of her book.... that it was, in fact, the biography of another GD claimant whose story had been falsely credited to Smith.

jk

Who is that little known claimant?   And about Eugenia Smith, I think she may have heard something of the true story about the murder from someone in Bukovina,the province on the border between Russia and Rumania where she came from before she emigrated to the US. She didenĀ“t first claim to be GD Anastasia when she delivered the manuscript to her publisher Robert Speller in New York. She said she got it from GD Anastasia who had died. Only later she told them that she actually WAS the Grand Duchess.

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #163 on: October 27, 2006, 09:51:54 PM »

There is another little-known GD claimant case, never before discussed on this board, that includes the claim that Eugenia Smith was not the true author of her book.... that it was, in fact, the biography of another GD claimant whose story had been falsely credited to Smith.

jk

Who is that little known claimant? 


Ask your moderator to tell you...  ;)

jk

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #164 on: October 28, 2006, 12:20:31 PM »

There is another little-known GD claimant case, never before discussed on this board, that includes the claim that Eugenia Smith was not the true author of her book.... that it was, in fact, the biography of another GD claimant whose story had been falsely credited to Smith.

jk

Who is that little known claimant? 


Ask your moderator to tell you...  ;)

jk

I was contacted by this claimant's family about 10 years ago. They do not want her identity or theirs publically disclosed. I can tell you she was a very beautiful woman with a strong resemblance to GD Tatiana. Her son was one of the first, if not the first, to receive the polio vaccine in the United States. My files on this case are packed away, but I am not comfortable discussing much more than this one fact that may be discussed publically:

The claimant's family was able to obtain a DNA sample from one of Queen Victoria's descendants (the identity of whom I have agreed to keep private) which was sent to a US lab and sequenced ahead of Prince Phillp's sample. This mtDNA sequence would exactly matched Philip's, by the way, so suggestions that the Victorian mtDNA was somehow manipulated to not match AA's are completely false. This claimant's son's mtDNA did not match either of the Victorian descendants', so I thought that would be the end of the case. However, the son told me that he now believes he was not his mother's natural son!