Author Topic: One thing I find odd  (Read 109268 times)

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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #165 on: October 28, 2006, 12:32:35 PM »
...she was a very beautiful woman with a strong resemblance to GD Tatiana. .This claimant's son's mtDNA did not match either of the Victorian descendants', so I thought that would be the end of the case. However, the son told me that he now believes he was not his mother's natural son!

So are you saying that this claimant claimed to be GD Tatiana? If the son knew that he wasn't her natural son, why did he bother having his mtDNA tested in the first place, and only fessed up that he "wasn't her natural son" after it didn't match? Sounds quite murky to me...



Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #166 on: October 28, 2006, 12:41:48 PM »
...she was a very beautiful woman with a strong resemblance to GD Tatiana. .This claimant's son's mtDNA did not match either of the Victorian descendants', so I thought that would be the end of the case. However, the son told me that he now believes he was not his mother's natural son!

So are you saying that this claimant claimed to be GD Tatiana? If the son knew that he wasn't her natural son, why did he bother having his mtDNA tested in the first place, and only fessed up that he "wasn't her natural son" after it didn't match? Sounds quite murky to me...




I think it's called grasping at straws, m'dear. Let me try to be clearer so you will be able to agree with me, or at least, be able to see my point.

I was contacted by the claimant's family, who had already obtained the Victorian DNA sample. I told them they should be tested. (The claimant was desceased by the time I was contacted.). I suggested they test the woman's children who were living at the time instead of exhuming the claimant. The son's mtDNA did not match that of the maternal line of Queen Victoria. IOW, we could exclude this man as being related in the maternal line to Empress Alexandra, Princess Alice, or Queen Victoria (and any of their matrilineal ancestors). The test clearly showed the claim was false. Nothing was murky, I was done.

Then (and only then), the son said, he was not his mother's natural son.

Offline OTMA-fan

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #167 on: October 28, 2006, 02:04:24 PM »
I found this interesting. This is from the book Sisu by Oskari Tokor.
"The trip back was made moer rapidly - but I almost lost my youngest son. Late in the night, beyond Perm, the train was stopped at some wayside station and surrounded by Red militia. They searched the train with great thoroughness. The passengers learned that they expected to find the Czarevitch Alexei, the Czar's 13-year-old son, who had escaped from Jekaterinburg!
"My son was sharing a compartment with our imterpreter. As soon as the militia saw the boy the pounced on him. He was the same age, and the same height, and - they declared - he looked the same as teh Czarevithch. The interpreter tried to assure them tha the boy was Finnish and did not even speak  a word of Russian, but no one would believe him. Finally the interpreter remembered that the Czarevitch was said to be lame, and he came up with his last trump. My son was marched up and down the corridor, and everyone watched closely to see if he limped. When the militia were convinced he walked straight on his own two feet, they let him go.
"Every compartment, every corner, of the train was searched, and the pillows and mattresses so thoroughly bayonetted that not a mouse could have remained alive in them. Perhaps the son of Czar Nicholas II succeeded in escaping. Perhaps he remained somewhere among the living when his family was executed behind the tall plank fence surrounding the villa in Jekaterinburg."

pp. 176-177.

Dear Lexi4,
This is an extremely interesting discovery to me. If it's true, this would suggest that Alexei survived the execution. I don't think any historian discovered this description fro this obscure book. 
Remember, DNA or forensic evidence also showed that they couldn't find the Alexei's remain, which suggests that Alexei could have survived.
Where did you find this book? I never heard of them. I searched the Amazon, but couldn't find either  Sisu nor Oskari Tokor. Is it some sort of Japanese name?

Offline OTMA-fan

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Lexi4's posting about "Sisu"
« Reply #168 on: October 28, 2006, 02:11:35 PM »
I found this interesting. This is from the book Sisu by Oskari Tokor.
"The trip back was made moer rapidly - but I almost lost my youngest son. Late in the night, beyond Perm, the train was stopped at some wayside station and surrounded by Red militia. They searched the train with great thoroughness. The passengers learned that they expected to find the Czarevitch Alexei, the Czar's 13-year-old son, who had escaped from Jekaterinburg!
"My son was sharing a compartment with our imterpreter. As soon as the militia saw the boy the pounced on him. He was the same age, and the same height, and - they declared - he looked the same as teh Czarevithch. The interpreter tried to assure them tha the boy was Finnish and did not even speak  a word of Russian, but no one would believe him. Finally the interpreter remembered that the Czarevitch was said to be lame, and he came up with his last trump. My son was marched up and down the corridor, and everyone watched closely to see if he limped. When the militia were convinced he walked straight on his own two feet, they let him go.
"Every compartment, every corner, of the train was searched, and the pillows and mattresses so thoroughly bayonetted that not a mouse could have remained alive in them. Perhaps the son of Czar Nicholas II succeeded in escaping. Perhaps he remained somewhere among the living when his family was executed behind the tall plank fence surrounding the villa in Jekaterinburg."

pp. 176-177.

This Lexi4's discovery is interesting to me, because it's not about the false claimant, which I got tired of. But it's about Red Army (is it same thing as Red militia?). There is no reason Red Army orchestrated to "set up" this laborious searching, just to deceive someone. If they wanted to deceive someone, they could have easily issued the statement that "We have Alexei, he is alive". The more I read this, the more I am convinced that this is true. But I will wait until Lexi4 can post the copy of this page on AP site. This is an important evidence.

But this account has no information regarding the date. When did this happen?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2006, 02:16:15 PM by OTMA-fan »

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #169 on: October 28, 2006, 02:17:53 PM »
I think it's called grasping at straws, m'dear. Let me try to be clearer so you will be able to agree with me, or at least, be able to see my point.

I was contacted by the claimant's family, who had already obtained the Victorian DNA sample. I told them they should be tested. (The claimant was desceased by the time I was contacted.). I suggested they test the woman's children who were living at the time instead of exhuming the claimant. The son's mtDNA did not match that of the maternal line of Queen Victoria. IOW, we could exclude this man as being related in the maternal line to Empress Alexandra, Princess Alice, or Queen Victoria (and any of their matrilineal ancestors). The test clearly showed the claim was false. Nothing was murky, I was done.

Then (and only then), the son said, he was not his mother's natural son.

I understood what you posted before quite clearly, thank you. But my questions still are: did this claimant claim to be GD Tatiana or another GD? And: did you ask the claimant's son why, if knew that he wasn't her natural son, did he allow them to go through the testing in the first place, and only said something about it when his DNA didn't match?  And the last question, which to me wasn't really clear from your  post: do you believe that this person wasn't this claimant's natural son? It sort of sounded from your previous post that you may be considering this as a possibility.


Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #170 on: October 28, 2006, 02:56:57 PM »
...she was a very beautiful woman with a strong resemblance to GD Tatiana. .This claimant's son's mtDNA did not match either of the Victorian descendants', so I thought that would be the end of the case. However, the son told me that he now believes he was not his mother's natural son!

So are you saying that this claimant claimed to be GD Tatiana? If the son knew that he wasn't her natural son, why did he bother having his mtDNA tested in the first place, and only fessed up that he "wasn't her natural son" after it didn't match? Sounds quite murky to me...




I think it's called grasping at straws, m'dear. Let me try to be clearer so you will be able to agree with me, or at least, be able to see my point.

I was contacted by the claimant's family, who had already obtained the Victorian DNA sample. I told them they should be tested. (The claimant was desceased by the time I was contacted.). I suggested they test the woman's children who were living at the time instead of exhuming the claimant. The son's mtDNA did not match that of the maternal line of Queen Victoria. IOW, we could exclude this man as being related in the maternal line to Empress Alexandra, Princess Alice, or Queen Victoria (and any of their matrilineal ancestors). The test clearly showed the claim was false. Nothing was murky, I was done.

Then (and only then), the son said, he was not his mother's natural son.

If I recall correctly, are there not other living relatives who have not yet been tested?

After all, this particular claimant's likeness to Tatiana is nothing short of remarkable!!  Not to mention the very curious personal connections this claimant is said to have had to both Eugenia Smith's publisher, Robert Speller, and to Anna Anderson's biggest promoter, Gleb Botkin.

And yes, it is entirely possible for Tatiana to be the missing daughter.  If the American forensic team has correctly identified Body 5  as Marie and the Russian forensic team has correctly identified Body 6 as Anastasia, then the missing Grand Duchess is Tatiana.

jk

Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #171 on: October 28, 2006, 03:07:58 PM »
Fascinating stuff.  I had no idea that there were claimants who had told of Alexei also escaping with them.  This is interesting.

Lisa, I find this story of a GD Tatiana claimant very interesting.  It's a shame you can't discuss the case more with us, but I understand you feeling uncomfortable about it, so that's fine. 

The more we discuss this, the more I'm convinced that there never is going to be a final word.  Even if this rumour about the two new bodies being found turns out to be true.  There were so many 'survivors', many of them with convincing stories.  This means that no matter what physical evidence we have, the conspiracy theories will continue. 

Rachel
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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #172 on: October 28, 2006, 03:47:19 PM »

Dear Lexi4,
This is an extremely interesting discovery to me. If it's true, this would suggest that Alexei survived the execution. I don't think any historian discovered this description fro this obscure book. 
Remember, DNA or forensic evidence also showed that they couldn't find the Alexei's remain, which suggests that Alexei could have survived.
Where did you find this book? I never heard of them. I searched the Amazon, but couldn't find either  Sisu nor Oskari Tokor. Is it some sort of Japanese name?


The book's full title is Sisu: Even Through A Stone Wall, and it was published in 1957.  It is the autobiography of Antti Oskari Tokoi, a Finn; see: http://www.saima-park.org/admin/park/oskari_tokoi.htm

"Sisu" isn't a Japanese word, but rather a Finnish one roughly meaning "guts" and "perseverance."

"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts."  -- A Piece of Good Advice

Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good. -- Henry Rollins

Offline OTMA-fan

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Lexi4's posting about "Sisu"
« Reply #173 on: October 28, 2006, 05:12:46 PM »
I found this interesting. This is from the book Sisu by Oskari Tokor.
"The trip back was made moer rapidly - but I almost lost my youngest son. Late in the night, beyond Perm, the train was stopped at some wayside station and surrounded by Red militia. They searched the train with great thoroughness. The passengers learned that they expected to find the Czarevitch Alexei, the Czar's 13-year-old son, who had escaped from Jekaterinburg!
"My son was sharing a compartment with our imterpreter. As soon as the militia saw the boy the pounced on him. He was the same age, and the same height, and - they declared - he looked the same as teh Czarevithch. The interpreter tried to assure them tha the boy was Finnish and did not even speak  a word of Russian, but no one would believe him. Finally the interpreter remembered that the Czarevitch was said to be lame, and he came up with his last trump. My son was marched up and down the corridor, and everyone watched closely to see if he limped. When the militia were convinced he walked straight on his own two feet, they let him go.
"Every compartment, every corner, of the train was searched, and the pillows and mattresses so thoroughly bayonetted that not a mouse could have remained alive in them. Perhaps the son of Czar Nicholas II succeeded in escaping. Perhaps he remained somewhere among the living when his family was executed behind the tall plank fence surrounding the villa in Jekaterinburg."

pp. 176-177.

Fascinating! It turned out that Oskari Tokor is not some Japanese author or cook, but he was a PRIME MINISTER OF FINLAND!!
I don't think anyone suspect the authenticity of the account. Thanks to Lexi4, we now know that Alexei might have survived.
Let me ask this way. Which witness do you believe? Some Russian murderer named Yurovsky? or Prime minister of Finland? It's not even an question.
Unfortunately, I can't find this book in my library. I will be wairing for Lexi4's response, if he/she can take a photo of page and post it here. I really want to know the surrounding pages. What did Tokor mention about this incident? and When did this happen?

« Last Edit: October 28, 2006, 05:14:23 PM by OTMA-fan »

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #174 on: October 28, 2006, 05:23:43 PM »
I think it's called grasping at straws, m'dear. Let me try to be clearer so you will be able to agree with me, or at least, be able to see my point.

I was contacted by the claimant's family, who had already obtained the Victorian DNA sample. I told them they should be tested. (The claimant was desceased by the time I was contacted.). I suggested they test the woman's children who were living at the time instead of exhuming the claimant. The son's mtDNA did not match that of the maternal line of Queen Victoria. IOW, we could exclude this man as being related in the maternal line to Empress Alexandra, Princess Alice, or Queen Victoria (and any of their matrilineal ancestors). The test clearly showed the claim was false. Nothing was murky, I was done.

Then (and only then), the son said, he was not his mother's natural son.

I understood what you posted before quite clearly, thank you. But my questions still are: did this claimant claim to be GD Tatiana or another GD? And: did you ask the claimant's son why, if knew that he wasn't her natural son, did he allow them to go through the testing in the first place, and only said something about it when his DNA didn't match?  And the last question, which to me wasn't really clear from your  post: do you believe that this person wasn't this claimant's natural son? It sort of sounded from your previous post that you may be considering this as a possibility.



1. To my knowledge, the person herself within her lifetime was never specific about this. She does, however, look amazingly like an older Tatiana.
2. Since he had never expressed any doubts about his parentage prior to the testing, I felt this new claim was not worth considering.
3. I have no way of knowing one way or another whether or not this is true or not. My conjecture is that, if a person comes to me and says, I am the grandson of the last Tsar of Russia, and he shows me pictures of a woman he says is is mother, who looks like Tatiana, then I am reasonably certain he thinks:

1. He is his mother's natural son.
2. He thinks his mother was GD Tatiana.

And, if after testing, he is shown not to be genetically related to the Romanovs, my further conjecture is that he was mistaken in claiming relationship to the IF and that his late statement about not being her natural child is grasping at straws, and not true.

Offline Annie

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #175 on: October 28, 2006, 06:20:08 PM »
Could it be he only claimed to be adopted after finding out his DNA did not match? If he knew he was adopted all along why bother with a DNA test? That is how it looks to me, he must have thought he was really going to come up as a match and when he did not he used the adoption story as a cover to keep the hope alive that his mother might still be a GD, knowing she would probably never be exhumed and everyone could just keep wondering?

Really, this is the most interesting claimaint story I have seen in awhile (though I do not believe it, it is still a refreshing change from the rehash of AA over and over again!!!!) How about a thread just on this subject?

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #176 on: October 28, 2006, 06:37:36 PM »
Could it be he only claimed to be adopted after finding out his DNA did not match? If he knew he was adopted all along why bother with a DNA test? That is how it looks to me, he must have thought he was really going to come up as a match and when he did not he used the adoption story as a cover to keep the hope alive that his mother might still be a GD, knowing she would probably never be exhumed and everyone could just keep wondering?

Really, this is the most interesting claimaint story I have seen in awhile (though I do not believe it, it is still a refreshing change from the rehash of AA over and over again!!!!) How about a thread just on this subject?

Your analysis is certainly a possibility, Annie. It is a good story, and I will see what I can reveal without compromising anyone.

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Lexi4's posting about "Sisu"
« Reply #177 on: October 28, 2006, 07:17:36 PM »
Which witness do you believe? Some Russian murderer named Yurovsky? or Prime minister of Finland?

If the Prime Minister of Finand is saying that Alexei -- a lame hemophiliac who was in serious decline during the Ipatiev imprisonment -- survived a massacre in which the heir's death would have been the top priority behind his father's, then I would believe Yurovsky.

Not every Bolshevik lied about everything, and few politicians tell the truth all the time.

The only people who would think a claim Alexei survived could appear credible would be people who were unaware he had hemophilia . . . hardly a recommendation for a claim to be his sister. 

These bizarre survivor theories have more ability to propogate than an infestation of cockroaches.  Lisa is right.  "Tatiana's" son was trying to cover a gaffe.  Jeez . . . .

Offline skirt

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #178 on: October 28, 2006, 07:31:40 PM »
Perhaps the son was embarassed? Just covering his disappointment by expressing after the fact that he was adopted.  OR was he so sure that his mother was correct that after finding out that his DNA didnt match it made him question his own birthright? Why would anyone go through with DNA testing fully knowing that he was adopted? Sounds fishy to me..
However this thread is definetly getting more interesting! I just finished reading the Romanov Prophesy and that little (very little and cynical) conspiracy theorist inside me is just working overtime.  Thanks Lexi4 for providing us with such a curious development and I await any further information that can be revealed concerning this other claimant story about GD Tatiana.
I LOVE this board!!!!!

Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #179 on: October 28, 2006, 07:42:41 PM »
Welcome, skirt! This place sure can be a lot of fun.  I hope you enjoy it here.  :)

It sounds to me like this man didn't want a once and for all negative result.  The DNA tests came out negative, then he mentions the question of whether he was actually adopted. This is something he would have known about beforehand if it were true, and so he wouldn't have asked for the DNA tests in the first place.  Therefore, it seems to me that it was simply a way of dealing with his disappointment and leaving the question open to whatever people want to believe.

There have been so many survivors that it goes into the realm of farce. 

Alexei had haemophilia.  He couldn't have survived.  The bodies of five people were found, and there have been hundreds of so called survivors.  So that tells you how much truth can be gleaned from these tall tales.

Have people claiming to be Trupp, Botkin or Demidova ever shown up? Now THAT would be interesting.  I might start a thread.

Rachel
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