Author Topic: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life  (Read 158289 times)

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Annie

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I've been thinking about FS's family, could it be the ones who denied her did so because they really didn't want to have to worry about her and was glad she was gone? One of the brothers even asked before he met AA to see if it was FS that "if she really is my sister I won't have to be responsible for her will I?" Maybe she was the black sheep of the family and they just didn't want her and felt she'd be better off as "Anastasia"  ( I can totally see my siblings feeling that way about me!)

Also what would have happened if they had sworn it was their sister and dragged her home, humilated, kicking and screaming? What kind of life would that have been for any of them? I think they thought  whatever life she could make out of her charade was better than her reality so leave her to it.

No offense to anyone but I would honestly love to read things on this family and things said and done that were not written by a person who was totally against the idea of AA being FS. Is there any way to get the full story?

bookworm

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2004, 10:14:11 AM »
Robert Massie gave a fairly good overview of the Schanzkowski family in "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" and he's definitely an author who never believed in Anna Anderson.

Here's the relevant excerpt, from page 249 of the hardcover edition:
"Who was Franziska Schanzkowska, the woman who for over sixty years had claimed to be Grand Duchess Anastasia? She was born in 1896 in the Prussian province of Posen, adjacent to the border with Poland, which was then a part of the Russian Empire. Two hundreds years before, her family had belonged to lesser Polish nobility, but by the end of the nineteenth century, the family were farmworkers. Franziska's father, an impoverished alcoholic, died when his children were young. In the village where she grew up, Franziska always was different and solitary. She did not make friends, and she tried especially to distance herself from her sisters by assuming what they considered an affected, upper-class manner. At harvesttime, when the entire village was out in the fields bringing in hay, Franziska would be found lying in a cart reading books on history.
  " 'My Auntie Franziska was the cleverest of the four children,' " said Waltraud Schanzkowska, a resident of Hamburg. " 'She didn't want to be be buried in a little one-horse town. She wanted to come out into the world, to become an actress -- something special.' " In 1914, shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, Franziska, at age eighteen, left the Polish provinces for Berlin. She worked as a waitress, met a young man, and became engaged. Before she could marry, her fiance was called up for military service. Franziska began working in a munitions factory. In 1916, the young man was killed on the western front. Soon afterward, Franziska let a grenade slip from her hands on the assembly line. It exploded nearby, inflicting splinter wounds on her head and other parts of her body and eviscerating a foreman, who died before her eyes. She was sent to a sanitarium, where her physical injuries healed but the shock remained. Franziska was declared "not cured, but not dangerous," and discharged. She was taken in, almost as a charity case, by Frau Wingender, who gave her a room of her own, Incapable of working long periods, Franziska was in and out of sanatoria; in between, she remained bedridden at the Wingender's apartment, complaining of headaches, swallowing pills, and reading history books from the local library. In February 1920, her favorite brother, Felix, received a last message from her. On February 17, 1920, she disappeared."


bookworm

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2004, 10:16:48 AM »
Peter Kurth, the author of Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, refutes some of Massie's statement on his web site. He's not unbiased, obviously, but I think he has some relevant points. He also had a bit more information about the background of the Schanzkowski family:

"The Schanzkowski family didn’t speak Polish, nor did they understand Russian when they heard it, according to sister Gertrude.  The family wasn’t "Polish" at all in the sense we mean it now.  Among a population that lived with constantly changing borders near Danzig (Gdansk), in Pomerania, the Schanzkowskis' local dialect was "Kashoub," which Gertrude remembered speaking fluently as a child, but which she later "forgot through disuse" [if you please!] [27] German, not Polish, was the language Franziska learned outside the home; after 1914, she was continually in Berlin, speaking and writing in German and signing her name in German Gothic script." ...

Footnote from Kurth's web site going further in Franziska's dialect:
"Franziska Schanzkowska’s Kashoubian background, however, is distinct and should be stressed.  The Kashoubs were subsistence farmers in Pomerania, neither Polish nor German, although under German rule during Franziska’s childhood, with a unique dialect even now depicted satirically as oafish and crude.  Günther Grass parodies “de Kaschuben” in The Tin Drum -- “weil unserains nich richtich polnisch is und nich richtich deitsch jenug, und wenn man Kaschub is, das raicht weder de Deitschen noch de Polacken.  De wollen es immer jenau haben!”  Kashoubs are a discrete ethnic and linguistic minority, in no way linked to Russia.  See Klaus-Dieter Kreplin’s Kashoubian Reader (in German only): “Die Frage ist umstritten, ob die kaschubische Sprache als eigenständige Sprache gilt oder lediglich als ein polnischer Dialekt zu betrachten ist.  Sicher ist: Kaschubisch kann, wenn es schnell gesprochen wird, von Polen nicht verstanden werden.” "


bookworm

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2004, 10:17:33 AM »
From the main text of the Kurth Web site:

"According to her sister, Franziska knew no foreign languages and read books only "now and then.”   None of her siblings even entered high school; apparently Franziska was the only one in the family who read anything at all.  Nevertheless, the village schoolteacher in her home town remembered her as "eher beschränkt als intelligent"—more limited than intelligent -- and there is no evidence that she exercised some “great suggestive power” over other people.   Gertrude added, "I'm not aware that Franziska `put on airs' or pretended to `be the lady.’  She was just a girl like other girls.” [34]  If and when someone publishes Berenberg-Gossler's memoirs, I hope they will include the letter of Gertrude's daughter, Margarete, sent to her uncle, Felix Schanzkowski, on May 16, 1959, in which Franziska’s niece urges Franziska’s brother to "recognize" Anna Anderson and realize her potential for the family:  "It's not everyone who can say he has a full-blooded sister whom powerful and important people have mistaken for decades as the daughter of the tsar!"
  "With this one exception, since 1927, the members of the Schanzkowski family have shown no voluntary interest in the woman science now says is their sister and aunt.  Felix Schanzkowski met Anna Anderson twice and both times insisted she was a stranger [35], as did Franziska’s sister Juliana and her brother Valerian.  A variety of motives have been invented for these people, all deceased, to explain their denial of kinship with Mrs. Anderson, in light of Gertrude’s lone affirmation that she was, indeed, Franziska—a recognition based on a forced confrontation at police headquarters in Hannover in 1938, when Mrs. Anderson’s attorneys were preparing to bring her case to court.  Even then, Gertrude refused to sign a statement to support her allegation."  

Footnote from Kurth's Web site:
"Klier and Mingay also report (223) that Franziska Schanzkowska and her brother Felix had a different mother than the other Schanzkowski siblings:  “Her father married twice, and she was a child of the second marriage and close to her brother Felix.  The first family were very religious and straitlaced, while Franziska and Felix were more open-minded.”  This story was repeated on a now-defunct website, an attack on Anna Anderson snidely titled Franziska:  “At some point in the distant past her family had been minor Polish nobility, but whatever glories and privileges that had entailed were long gone.  Her father was said to have been an alcoholic, and at any rate died when she was still young.  The child of a second marriage, Franziska and her full brother Felix were remembered as being free-spirited, less driven by religion than their half sisters.” Again, no source is given for this claim.  Neither Klier and Mingay nor Franziska’s anonymous author seem to notice that, if this is true, the mitochondrial DNA obtained from a descendant of Gertrude Schanzkowska would not and could not match Franziska’s, since this DNA is passed only through the female line and they did not have the same mother."


This is all that I have seen written about Franziska Schanzkowska. I've also seen it suggested that the great-niece Waltraut who has been interviewed wanted to be paid for the interview. As a journalist I tend to distrust comments made by people who are being paid for them. In particular, I'd really like to know if Franziska was actually a half-sister of Gertrude. If she was her mitochondrial DNA wouldn't have matched Gertrude's grandson Karl Maucher's unless Franziska's and Gertrude's two different mothers were maternally related.

Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2004, 10:26:11 AM »
Thank you very much bookworm, I appreciate it. But I have read everything on Kurth's site, and his book, and I am looking for a different perspective from someone else so I can compare them.

bookworm

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2004, 10:39:27 AM »
I've also read everything I could find in English about this topic and I have never seen anything else written about the Schanzkowski family. All of the siblings are dead now. Maybe there were German media interviews with Karl Maucher and this Waltraud in the 1990s but I've never heard of them. If someone here speaks German and saw such an interview, it would be interesting to hear about it.

Since he gave blood to the scientists, maybe he wanted to clear up the family mystery himself? But that's strictly speculation.

It sounds like they were perhaps not a very close family. Franziska apparently lived with sister Gertrude during World War I and loved her brother Felix. On the other hand, they were poor; Franziska was mentally ill and apparently quite a difficult person who couldn't work and was in and out of mental hospitals. It certainly would have been an embarrassment to have a mentally ill sister in that time period, and at some point that type of relative is just exhausting. Felix might well have worried about supporting this sister who probably would never marry or be able to support herself.

I don't know if she was or was not Anna Anderson, but I suspect they might have decided to let her play out the role so they could be rid of her if they did recognize her as Franziska.  

Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2004, 10:53:48 AM »
Quote
It sounds like they were perhaps not a very close family. Franziska apparently lived with sister Gertrude during World War I and loved her brother Felix. On the other hand, they were poor; Franziska was mentally ill and apparently quite a difficult person who couldn't work and was in and out of mental hospitals. It certainly would have been an embarrassment to have a mentally ill sister in that time period, and at some point that type of relative is just exhausting. Felix might well have worried about supporting this sister who probably would never marry or be able to support herself.

I don't know if she was or was not Anna Anderson, but I suspect they might have decided to let her play out the role so they could be rid of her if they did recognize her as Franziska.  


That is exactly what I have been thinking. We will never know of course but it is a possible answer to the question.

stepan

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2004, 12:26:32 PM »
Hallo! I can also add to this some words also from Kliers and Mingay´s book.   It says that Felix daughter told reporters that her father spoke about his sister Franziska with pride,"that she got away and began a new and successful life as Anna Anderson".  No source is given so I don´t know where the authors have got this information. I have never seen or heard about any interview given by the Schanzkowski family.  Perhaps there have been in the German press. Perhaps the one who arranged for the blood test given by Carl Maucher in Germany heard some interview or knows something. I don´t remember his name right now.  Certainly it would be very interesting to know what the Schankowskis really think about Anna Anderson.  It has been
suggested that they diden´t  want to ruin her carreer as Anastasia so thy simply stated that she wasen´t their sister. But this is speculation,  that´s why it would be interesting to know what their true feelings are today. They have nothing to fear today if they told  what they know or believe.

Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2004, 09:06:32 AM »
Quote
It has been
 suggested that they diden´t  want to ruin her carreer as Anastasia so thy simply stated that she wasen´t their sister.


Thank you Stefan, that's very interesting. I thought it was something like that, I wouldn't be surprised if it were true. It makes sense, they didn't want to spoil her 'career' and chance at a much better life, and they didn't want to be burdened with the responsibility of her. It would seem to work out best for all of them ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2004, 09:16:03 AM »
One of the most interesting investigations that could be done on the AA mystery is to get to the bottom of the whole thing: how it started, who was involved, who did or did not do what, what were the real reasons, motives, etc., who knew what and when, and how did they manage to pull it off for so long. I'd also like to know if Anna really believed she was Anastasia or was just acting. I believe in her later years she did believe it, but I'm not sure about all along. Are these secrets forever lost with the dead, or can we discover the fascinating story behind it all?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

bookworm

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2004, 10:19:08 AM »
I don't think it's ever going to be possible to know one way or the other. I am still not completely convinced that Anna Anderson wasn't Anastasia. DNA evidence said she wasn't; a lot of the other evidence Peter Kurth cites said she was.

Michelle

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2004, 09:59:19 PM »
Yes, I agree with you, bookworm.  It's just all so contradictory of each other.  Each side is compelling.  :-/

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2004, 07:52:24 AM »
Quote
No offense to anyone but I would honestly love to read things on this family and things said and done that were not written by a person who was totally against the idea of AA being FS. Is there any way to get the full story?


No offense, Annie, but your predisposition to only accept/believe/want to hear research or information on the Schanzkowsky Family "not written by a person who was totally against the idea of AA being FS" rather paints you into a corner as far as learning anything new or getting to the heart of the matter.  You seem to accept the un-documented, un-cited quotations from authors like Massie and Klier and Mingay, who were opposed to AA and who never questioned the DNA, but are apparently unwilling, for example, to believe the documented information on the family presented by Peter Kurth.  The imposition of personal prejudice on "fact" has always been the biggest problem in this case.  I suggest that it's more fruitful to look at everything and realize that anything written about AA in this case-from BOTH sides-comes with an agenda of varying degrees.

Many people have explored the family, and a lot of very fruitful work in Germany and Poland has disclosed a wealth of records on the Schanzkowskys that documents fully, from the moment of their births, the lives of Franziska and her family, until the time she disappeared in Berlin, drawing on church records, interviews, provincial and state archives, police archives, complete hospital records for Franziska, etc., all of it unpublished and unknown.

Greg King

Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2004, 08:48:19 AM »
Quote

No offense, Annie, but your predisposition to only accept/believe/want to hear research or information on the Schanzkowsky Family "not written by a person who was totally against the idea of AA being FS" rather paints you into a corner as far as learning anything new or getting to the heart of the matter.  You seem to accept the un-documented, un-cited quotations from authors like Massie and Klier and Mingay, who were opposed to AA and who never questioned the DNA, but are apparently unwilling, for example, to believe the documented information on the family presented by Peter Kurth.  The imposition of personal prejudice on "fact" has always been the biggest problem in this case.  I suggest that it's more fruitful to look at everything and realize that anything written about AA in this case-from BOTH sides-comes with an agenda of varying degrees.


I'm not blocking it out at all, I have read Kurth's website and his book, and the Lovell book too. While it is very interesting, I cannot get beyond the fact that the person is so emotionally attached to and so determined to prove one side that they cannot possibly be objective if conflicting evidence were to arise.

So what I'm looking for is the other side of the findings, written by people who are not trying to prove a point. What would be best is not a 'pro' or 'anti' AA stance but a totally neutral one, with all the facts presented for consideration.

Quote
many people have explored the family, and a lot of very fruitful work in Germany and Poland has disclosed a wealth of records on the Schanzkowskys that documents fully, from the moment of their births, the lives of Franziska and her family, until the time she disappeared in Berlin, drawing on church records, interviews, provincial and state archives, police archives, complete hospital records for Franziska, etc., all of it unpublished and unknown.

Greg King


Is there a chance this may someday become published and known?  ;)  I hope so!  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2004, 09:02:26 AM »
Quote

I'm not blocking it out at all, I have read Kurth's website and his book, and the Lovell book too. While it is very interesting, I cannot get beyond the fact that the person is so emotionally attached to and so determined to prove one side that they cannot possibly be objective if conflicting evidence were to arise.

 So what I'm looking for is the other side of the findings, written by people who are not trying to prove a point. What would be best is not a 'pro' or 'anti' AA stance but a totally neutral one, with all the facts presented for consideration.


Is there a chance this may someday become published and known?  ;)  I hope so!  :)


In this case, though, I think you have to realize that everything written about either FS or AA has some agenda behind it.  That's true for those who simply accept the DNA without question, ignoring, as I pointed out in another thread, the fact that scientific advances in genetic knowledge have in less than 10 years made two-thirds of the DNA "verdict" against AA and supposition that she was FS unreliable and no longer valid.  And it's true for those who simply say, "I don't believe the DNA," since they ignore the lack of an mtDNA match to the Hessian profile.  I know of no one who has published anything about this issue that has not fallen into one of these two camps to varying degrees, when what they should do is try to explore the inconsistancies and research the history.  In short, nothing yet published has been neutral.

I suppose at some point, yes, the information may be published, but we're talking about mountains of birth certificates, church registries, oral histories written down, police files, years of detailed hospital records, etc., that I'm afraid wouldn't make for a very interesting or exciting book except for those terribly interested in this question.

Greg King