Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life

[AGRBear]

Annie, don't leave on my account.  I told you it's ok to disagree.   I just didn't appreciate the tone of the comment about the Cheka Squad it was sarcastic and directed back at me.  I have not done the same to you.
I want to discuss this without getting upset.  I am not taking sides either. I just believe it is possible AA was not FS & you don't.


Ok, she was in the asylum at Dalldorf, outside of the nurses F.U. (AA) had no visitors, they sent her photo all over germany, no one claimed her from Berlin, Hanover,
Wurzburg, Frankfurt, etc.  

Kurth doesn't mention visitors in the book, UNTIL Clara
Peuthert gets involved and starts writing to Irene, Henry, Minnie, Thyra, Waldemar...etc., and the GD of Hesse.   That is when the notariety started regarding her identity.

Clara was the fuse that lit the powder keg, she let the emigre community know of AA's existance.

Tatiana Botkin was not involved at that point either.
AA did read a great deal according to the nurses and was very well versed & interested in Russian politics, policies and issues.  

I believe that Clara was in the asylum with her when she had her teeth extracted, then Harriet von Rathlef became involved about 1925.

 

My next question would be about

Michael has left us dangling.

So, what do we know about this Clara Peuthert?

Just what people, who know about AA,  can tell me and it is.....

AGRBear

[helenazar]

....[we think but unsure at this point in time.....

Just making sure posters know that this point is still an "unknown".

Exactly - it may be the case. But you keep stating it as if it were a fact, while it is only a possibility. So until we have proof that this is the case, we have to go with the original premise that it's not the case. Just wanted to clarify that...  

[Denise]

BTW--according to Peter's book the birth order is Gertrude first, then Franziska, and Felix was the youngest.  Yet another piece of the puzzle that doesn't quite fit right....    

This would lead me to believe that Gertrude was from the first family, as I read in Massie that Felix and FS (being from the second marriage) were more openminded than the very religious first family.  

Denise

[helenazar]

According to Penny (and Bear's chart 2) Gertrude was the child of FS's father's third marriage and the younger sibling (or half sibling). So basically it sounds like we don't know one way or another.

[AGRBear]

The word my one granddaughter and I have when a person is in a lighter and more humerous state of confusion:  we are "confusaled".  

Yep,  I am "confusaled", however, I have a feeling Penny will give us some answers when she can.  

Until then,  I'm headed over to some other threads....->  ->

AGRBear

[Denise]

Oh, I know, Helen. That is why I am confused.  I read on page 283:

There, in a room normally reserved for convicts and their families, she saw the Schanzkowskis--the brothers Valerian and Felix, and the sisters Gertrude and Maria Juliana.  Gleb was surprised to see that Gertrude, the elder sister, did bear a physical resemblance to Anastasia [Anna Anderson]: ""It was, however, the kind of resemblance which a horse or a bird can have to a human being."

Perhaps I am reading it wrong, and she is only the elder of the TWO sisters who came to see AA that day.  This was the trip in which Gertrude became insistant that AA was indeed FS, by the way, but left without signing anything.  

Denise

[helenazar]

Oh, I know, Helen. That is why I am confused.  I read on page 283:

There, in a room normally reserved for convicts and their families, she saw the Schanzkowskis--the brothers Valerian and Felix, and the sisters Gertrude and Maria Juliana.  Gleb was surprised to see that Gertrude, the elder sister, did bear a physical resemblance to Anastasia [Anna Anderson]: ""It was, however, the kind of resemblance which a horse or a bird can have to a human being."

Perhaps I am reading it wrong, and she is only the elder of the TWO sisters who came to see AA that day.  This was the trip in which Gertrude became insistant that AA was indeed FS, by the way, but left without signing anything.  

Denise

Well, one thing we can discern from all of this for sure: the fact that AA looked enough like FS (even if she wasn't) so that at least two siblings mistook her for FS initially. Felix, until he changed his mind later) and Gertrude (until she changed her mind much later). It doesn't matter that they changed their minds later, evidently AA looked enough like FS even after all the years that had passed after the siblings last saw her....

[Annie]

This would lead me to believe that Gertrude was from the first family, as I read in Massie that Felix and FS (being from the second marriage) were more openminded than the very religious first family.  

Denise

That was NOT Massie, that was from that "Search of Anastasia" book whose 2 authors names I can't think of (Klinglay maybe?) Massie, along with Kurth, always had them as one set of siblings, no steps (the steps only came up recently and I am inclined to go with the older info until definitive proof surfaces)

[Annie]

Well, one thing we can discern from all of this for sure: the fact that AA looked enough like FS (even if she wasn't) so that at least two siblings mistook her for FS initially. Felix, until he changed his mind later) and Gertrude (until she changed her mind much later). It doesn't matter that they changed their minds later, evidently AA looked enough like FS even after all the years that had passed after the siblings last saw her....

I wouldn't say they changed their 'minds' more like changed their stories

I still believe they DID recognize her and denied her to avoid responsibility. I also think she may have begged them not to expose her. This does make sense and I don't know why it's always ignored. They, and AA, stood a lot to lose financially if she were exposed as a fraud, she may even have faced jail time for fraud and filing a false claim. That may also have drug all her supporters down too. And what would the siblings have to gain but a mentally unstable sister to care for for the rest of her life? They'd have to pay her bills and deal with her rage that her career had been ruined. It was best for them all to keep up the charade. I am convinced of this. No one is ever going to find 'proof' of this in a courthouse or anything, we can only image, unless a family member (Carl M?) could tell us what the family legends say. The rest are dead and the dead tell no tales.

[Denise]

Thanks Annie!!  It is Klier and Mingay.  Drat!!  That's what happens when I am too lazy to verify which book I read it in....

(And note how nicely I take being corrected   )

Denise

[Annie]

Thanks Annie!!  It is Klier and Mingay.  Drat!!  That's what happens when I am too lazy to verify which book I read it in....

(And note how nicely I take being corrected   )

Denise

Yes Denise you are so nice! I hope I was nice enough in pointing that out. I just had to because it needed to go on record. I knew Massie would not do that, Massie is totally not an AA supporter and believes she was FS and has written this. Massie is the man!

[Denise]

I wouldn't say they changed their 'minds' more like changed their stories

I still believe they DID recognize her and denied her to avoid responsibility. I also think she may have begged them not to expose her. This does make sense and I don't know why it's always ignored. They, and AA, stood a lot to lose financially if she were exposed as a fraud, she may even have faced jail time for fraud and filing a false claim. That may also have drug all her supporters down too. And what would the siblings have to gain but a mentally unstable sister to care for for the rest of her life? They'd have to pay her bills and deal with her rage that her career had been ruined. It was best for them all to keep up the charade. I am convinced of this.

Something I just read in Kurth was that Felix made the agreement BEFORE he met AA for the first time that he would not be legally or financially libel for her if she were to be Franziska.  So that changes a little of your previous argument.  Unless I misunderstood.  But if Felix made the agreement BEFORE seeing her, he did not disavow her thinking that he would be libel for her if she were Franziska.  He already knew that REGARDLESS of his decision, she was not his problem.

Denise

Here it is:

Pg 173

In May Harriet von Rathlef had seized control of the "Schanzkowska legend" by arranging a meeting between Anastasia and a member of Franziska  Schazkowska's family.  It was something the Nachtausgabe had conspicuously not tried to do.  At Ammendorf Frau von Rathlef and her attorney, Dr Voller, had tracked down Felix Schanzkowski, Franziska Schanzkowska's younger brother.  Although plainly uninterested and resentful of the attention, Felix had at last been persuaded to meet Anastasia on the understanding that he would not be liable for her financial support if she turned out to be his sister.

[Denise]

Yes Denise you are so nice! I hope I was nice enough in pointing that out. I just had to because it needed to go on record. I knew Massie would not do that, Massie is totally not an AA supporter and believes she was FS and has written this. Massie is the man!

Well, since I only have 2 books on the DNA testing and FS (until Peter K's book came yesterday), it was easy enough to correct.....

Denise

[Annie]

Something I just read in Kurth was that Felix made the agreement BEFORE he met AA for the first time that he would not be legally or financially libel for her if she were to be Franziska.  So that changes a little of your previous argument.  Unless I misunderstood.  But if Felix made the agreement BEFORE seeing her, he did not disavow her thinking that he would be libel for her if she were Franziska.  He already knew that REGARDLESS of his decision, she was not his problem.

Denise

I did read that he was quoted as saying "If she is my sister, I don't have to be responsible for her, do I?" That is part of what I based my theory on.

[Denise]

In May Harriet von Rathlef had seized control of the "Schanzkowska legend" by arranging a meeting between Anastasia and a member of Franziska  Schazkowska's family.  It was something the Nachtausgabe had conspicuously not tried to do.  At Ammendorf Frau von Rathlef and her attorney, Dr Voller, had tracked down Felix Schanzkowski, Franziska Schanzkowska's younger brother.  Although plainly uninterested and resentful of the attention, Felix had at last been persuaded to meet Anastasia on the understanding that he would not be liable for her financial support if she turned out to be his sister.

You know, this shoots down the serial killer theory.  If Felix had thought his sister killed in 1920, then suddenly he thinks in 1927 she is alive, wouldn't he jump at the chance to see her alive, if they were as close as it has been reported???

Denise