Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life

[Denise]

This guy openly claims it was Botkin:

http://www.serfes.org/royal/annaanderson.htm

That doesn't make it fact, Annie.

As far as 'dissing' him, all I'm saying is that he was a likely source of information since he knew AN.  No one here has any proof but it doesn't stop people from speculating. Speaking of defaming, what about the guy who accused Queen Elizabeth II of switching the intestines and rigging the results?? People say all kinds of things here. I think the reason people get so ferocious over the suggestion that Botkin did it is because it makes too much sense and hurts the AA case so badly!

What about the years BEFORE AA met Gleb and his sister?  How do explain away those recollections?

Look, I don't believe that AA was AN.  But I do think it possible that she may have been someone who knew someone connected in someway.  Just because she may have shared mtDNA with the Schanzkowsky family doesn't make her FS.  

And if we are going to speculate, lets allow EVERYONE to speculate without being slapped down.  I know we all have our own beliefs on AA/FS/AN but there is no need to get dogmatic.

Denise

[Annie]

That doesn't make it fact, Annie.

Didn't say it did, but it is an excellent alternative view to Kurth's site (which also doesn't make anything a fact)

What about the years BEFORE AA met Gleb and his sister?  How do explain away those recollections?

I never said they were the only source. She talked to LOTS of Russian emigres', some of them may have innocently given her info just talking to her.

Look, I don't believe that AA was AN.  But I do think it possible that she may have been someone who knew someone connected in someway.  Just because she may have shared mtDNA with the Schanzkowsky family doesn't make her FS.

I don't see any other suspects, just like in the OJ case. And as long as it wasn't AN does it even matter? But I think she was FS. 

And if we are going to speculate, lets allow EVERYONE to speculate without being slapped down.  I know we all have our own beliefs on AA/FS/AN but there is no need to get dogmatic.

Denise

I get slapped down too you know.

[helenazar]

. . . and then there is the DNA; which comes back nicely to my original point: why stoop to the level of [some] AA supporters by making unsubstantiated subjective claims?

Yes, there is the DNA evidence which of course should theoretically be enough to close the case, and in most other cases it is enough. But not in this one. Although DNA is usually accepted as undisputable evidence, unfortunately in this particular case it is still being disputed! I have never seen anything like this, to be honest. I don't know if you have noticed, JM, but often when DNA evidence is evoked on these boards to show that we now have conclusive answers, shouts of "nothing is conclusive" and "to stop the 'DNA mantra'" and "have something else to say" can be heard. I personally don't think we need any other evidence to show that AA was not AN, but there are people who don't want to hear that and even get angry when you dare to mention it. They even start separate threads where you can't mention the "D" word. So what other choice is there than to start theorizing about other things then?  Before the DNA evidence, AA's case was very strong. But the DNA evidence blew a huge hole in it. If it weren't for that, we may still continue to think that AA was AN, at least some of us, but now we can't. But when you are not "allowed" to use this evidence, which is the most conclusive out of all the evidence there is, then you are forced to theorize.

[helenazar]

And remember, despite "recognizing" AA as FS at their meeting, Gertrude declined to sign an affadavit that AA was her sister.  

I

 Could she have been scared of signing the affidavit because she thought that this would make her responsible for AA's hospital bills? Many people will admit to things verbally but when it comes down to signing anything they will not. Just a theory....

[Annie]

 Could she have been scared of signing the affidavit because she thought that this would make her responsible for AA's hospital bills? Many people will admit to things verbally but when it comes down to signing anything they will not. Just a theory....

As I've said many times, the siblings denying her mean NOTHING to me because of this and other reasons. Felix S. said 'if she's my sister I won't have to be responsible for her, will I?' So yes, they did fear being held financially responsible for her medical bills as well as the legal fees.

Look at it like this: if they claimed her as their sister, not only would they have been responsible for her bills, it would have meant she was exposed as a fake- that means charges could be filed against her for fraud and making a false claim. That could send her to jail. Who'd want to send their sister to jail, especially when they'd have to pay for her lawyer?? Plus can you image how upset she'd be to have been drug away from her charade, and then who'd care for her the rest of her life? She was mentally unstable and too unhealthy to work. Again, the siblings feared financial responsibility for a troubled sister.  That is why they denied her. They felt, and Felix later said, "she wanted to be Anastasia, we left her to what she wanted." It worked out best for all of them.

Also on a personal note, I can totally see my siblings denying me if it meant they'd have to cough up cash. So this makes perfect sense to me.

[rskkiya]

She had to get her "memories" from somewhere... or someone.

Are you at all familiar with "Clever Hans"?
rskkiya

[Maria_Romanov_fan]

 rsyikka, I feel somewhat stupid but I am here to learn. :-/
Is "Clever Hands" a person...
Or do you mean literally clever hands!?  

[Denise]

Are you at all familiar with "Clever Hans"?
rskkiya

Great point, rskkiya.  I'd forgotton about that.  REad about Hans 16 years ago in Psych 101  .  I think it is possible, probable even.  Clever Hans, the horse who could "count" by reading the body language of his owner.  

Even the whole thing about AA asking if Gleb had brought his "funny animals."  Well, since Tatiana Botkin had been to see her first, isn't it possible something was said in passing that AA later used with Gleb?  Most likely.  After all, DNA shows she wasn't AN, so she had to pick up on all the cues of the people coming to see the "Grand Duchess  Anastasia" in order to put on a good show.....


Denise

[helenazar]

Clever Hans, the horse who could "count" by reading the body language of his owner.  

Denise

 Hans the Horse was not the only one who employed this trick. Many clever "psychics" do it too! You have to be a detective of a sort, but these things can be accomplished with amazing results.

I am not completely familiar with all the info AA was aware of, perhaps there were things so specific that it would not be impossible to "guess" this way? Does anyone know?

[rskkiya]

    Clever Hans was a farmhorse in the late 19th century that many other people were convinced had the ability to preform mathmatical fuctions - but actually it was simply a creature that was remarkably good at sensing the reactions of the people around him...

Hans what is 2+3?

Hans stomps his hoof once, twice thrice, four times -- five times... and all around react, so naturally he stops! All are amazed by his skill! But you see, it isn't skill at all ... If noone reacted, he just kept on stomping the ground...
  You see, I trying to suggest that AA was remarkably good at reading people's reactionsto her answers to various questions. She quickly figured out what was "acceptable" and what was 'not'...
   Supposedly AA /FS also read a great deal of history as a child.

Sorry if this was too cryptic a remark...
rskkiya

[Mgmstl]

It is true that many so called "psychics" work off of the reactions of those  who are looking for contact from the "other world".

I don't see AA as one of these.  She was seriously ill for long periods, tuberculosis, emotional issues, etc.  I remember reading about Princess Xenia, who spent some time during AA's first visit to her home, not introducing herself to her guest, but standing back & observing her & her behaviour.  This drew AA's ire lwhen she was later introduced to her hostess.

I just don't see her as this type, HOWEVER, I would say that developing this type of instinct to read people's reactions does take time, where did she learn it???
From whom???

I am just not convinced completely that AA was FS.

[helenazar]

I am just not convinced completely that AA was FS.

For the purpose of this discussion, it doesn't even matter if she was FS or not, we know that she somehow was able to get the information, because she definitely was not Anastasia. We are just trying to figure out how it was possible. And apparently she did not get everything right all the time, it may have been some of the time only: apparently she made a lot of serious mistakes in her answers. So this also gave her away...

[Mgmstl]

But Helen, there are those who backed her who believed her & her story, and the position of those people can't be overlooked, and they did not change.

Remember also at first Olga & Shura were calling her Anastasia.  

I cannot discount all of this.  I cannot state emphatically enough that I am NOT at all sure of WHO THIS WOMAN WAS.   Until the facts about the family of F.S. are made clear, and the fact that her own "siblings would not sign affadavits stating she was F.S., all points in another direction to me.

Many people who are con artists, psychics whatever rely on these tricks to advance their con or their game,
I too would like to know how she learned what she did learn, evidently it wasn't all Gleb Botkin.

After re reading Peter Kurths book again, and then reading the chapters in FOTR.  I am more than willing to state that I cannot say for sure who this woman was, but she was not Anastasia.  

It would take careful years of study on the IF in order to impersonate one of them, and I am not sure the material was available like it is now, also, I realize she did get things wrong, however she was remarkable for the accomplishment of one thing putting it over on everyone for 60+ years, and getting one of the worlds longest running court cases out of it.

[Annie]

Remember also at first Olga & Shura were calling her Anastasia.  

I'm sure Helen can better answer this one. There are many quotes and writings on Olga which contradict this, and Shura may have been emotional and mistaken. Her husband Gilliard fought AA to his dying day.

I cannot discount all of this.  I cannot state emphatically enough that I am NOT at all sure of WHO THIS WOMAN WAS.   Until the facts about the family of F.S. are made clear, and the fact that her own "siblings would not sign affadavits stating she was F.S., all points in another direction to me.

So it means nothing to you they did so to avoid financial responsibility for her, to keep her from having charges of fraud, extortion and filing a false claim leveled against her (which could have happened if she were exposed as a fake) and as not to ruin her career as a claimant?

I too would like to know how she learned what she did learn, evidently it wasn't all Gleb Botkin.

We do NOT know this. It could have been. He was there, he had intimate knowledge of AN and the IF and their palaces, and he was a writer in search of a story- it was his job! We can't rule him out. We can't prove it, but we can't rule him out either. And once again, she spoke to MANY other Russian emigres' during the 1920's. He remains my first and most obvious suspect, though not the first or only source.

[AGRBear]

It continues to amaze me that Gleb Botkin's name is slung about like he was a piece of dirt.  None of you have facts to back up such accusations.   If you feel like tearing someone apart, why not tear apart Yurovsky and the CHEKA who murdered out of hatred and anger.

Until you can find evidence,  I suggest you get back to the thread of the real FS who may not have been Anna Anderson.

Wait a minute people. Wouldn't friends/family ect know that FS was missing? Did she even have anybody? And where did she even get the idea that she was Anastasia N.? Was this her plan, I'm guessing it was. Then who fed her all that info(if she was a fake)? A little help please!

Or, continue to think she was FS until the new evidence is out.

Since AA didn't know Botkin and others until after it was announced she was GD Anatasia,  then the information probably came from the magazines and then as time progressed,  she learn bites and pieces since she was, obviously, quite clever and just crazy enough to convince a lot of people.

AGRBear