Author Topic: Precedence  (Read 35813 times)

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Offline carl fraley

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Re: Precedence
« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2007, 05:31:33 PM »
I wonder how Princess  M. of Kent took her "bump" down .

Offline dmitri

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Re: Precedence
« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2007, 06:34:50 PM »
I doubt she would have lost any sleep over it.

Offline carl fraley

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Re: Precedence
« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2007, 07:03:39 PM »
With the new order established, i wonder where William's wife (If he marries in the lifetime of the Queen) would rank?  Before the Princess Royal or after Princess Alexandra?

Offline CHRISinUSA

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Re: Precedence
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2007, 10:23:24 PM »
William's wife - during the reign of the present Queen - will rank 5th - below the Queen, Anne, Alexandra and Camilla.  Princess William of Wales certainly couldn't rank above her step-mother-in-law - who will preceed her as royal consort.

While I think the Queen made the right decision given the circumstances of today, I dislike that the circumstances forced her to.  Personally I think the wife of the heir apparent should rank immediately below the Queen (or Queen Consort) - since she will be the next Queen. 

But in days past the wives of PoW's were usually princesses from birth, not divorced commoners, so the point was then mute. 


Offline eejm

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Re: Precedence
« Reply #79 on: November 12, 2007, 12:28:17 PM »
Not certain if this is the correct place for this question, as it is one more of title than precedence.  In every publication and on every photo I can think of taken after her husband's death, Helena, Duchess of Albany, is referred to as such.  However, a few months after Leopold's death, she gave birth to her son Charles Edward, who became the next Duke of Albany upon his birth.  Even after his birth, however, photos especially still identifiy Helena as the Duchess of Albany.  Wouldn't she be Dowager Duchess because her husband had died and had been succeeded?  And shouldn't she especially be referred to as Dowager Duchess upon CE's maturity, or at least his marriage?  (I know by the time he was a teenager, CE was heir to the Duchy of Coburg and the Albany title was not quite as important.)

I don't recall ever seeing her referred to as Dowager Duchess of Albany.  Even Helena's Wikipedia entry refers to her as Duchess of Albany up until her death.  Can anyone explain why this is?

Offline TampaBay

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Re: Precedence
« Reply #80 on: November 12, 2007, 01:06:03 PM »
I would guess Helen was referred to as “The Duchess of Albany” because there never was another Duchess of Albany to follow her.  Charles Edward was born a Royal Duke of Albany and succeeded to the Dukedom of Saxe Coburg-Gotha before his majority & marriage.

Upon marriage, I am sure is wife was styled “Grand Duchess of Saxe Coburg-Gotha”.

Therefore, there was never a “Duchess of Albany” after Helen so there was no reason to add “Dowager” to her title to distinguish her from her Daughter-in-Law.

Just my humble guess and opinion.

TampaBay
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Offline eejm

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Re: Precedence
« Reply #81 on: November 12, 2007, 01:16:39 PM »
I would guess Helen was referred to as “The Duchess of Albany” because there never was another Duchess of Albany to follow her.  Charles Edward was born a Royal Duke of Albany and succeeded to the Dukedom of Saxe Coburg-Gotha before his majority & marriage.

Upon marriage, I am sure is wife was styled “Grand Duchess of Saxe Coburg-Gotha”.

Therefore, there was never a “Duchess of Albany” after Helen so there was no reason to add “Dowager” to her title to distinguish her from her Daughter-in-Law.

Just my humble guess and opinion.

TampaBay


I can see the reasoning for that before CE married, but wouldn't CE's wife have been the next Duchess of Albany, even though she was styled Grand Duchess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha?  CE and Victoria-Adelaide married in 1905, before WWI and Charles Edward lost the title.  I'd think even though VA probably didn't use the title much (if at all) she still was technically the Duchess of Albany for several years.  When they were in Britain especially, I'd think Helena would be known as Dowager and VA as Duchess, even though the Albany title was a lesser one.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 01:19:46 PM by eejm »

Offline CHRISinUSA

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Re: Precedence
« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2007, 03:18:33 PM »
This is more an issue of style/form of address than it is about title.  The form of address "Dowager" is really only to differentiate the wife of the current title holder from the widow of his predecessor.  If no distinction is necessary, the title "dowager" is not added in normal usage.

By the time Charles-Eduard married, he already had a higher title - and a sovereign title at that!  His wife Victoria Adelaide officially became both "The" Duchess of S-C-G and "The" Duchess of Albany, but would have only used her senior title.  So there was no reason for Helena to have to adopt Dowager in her form of address.  Officially Victoria Adelaide held the title, but Helena used it.

It is similar to heirs to titles using subsidiary titles by courtesy.  The present Duchess of Kent is officially also "The" Countess of St. Andrews and "The" Baroness Downpatrick.  However, she doesn't use either of those titles.  Her daughter-in-law Sylvana Palma Windsor is styled "Countess of St. Andrews" (without the "The") even though her mother-in-law actually holds the title offically.

Offline Vecchiolarry

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Re: Precedence
« Reply #83 on: November 12, 2007, 04:21:18 PM »
Hi,

The title "Dowager" is not always appreciated by the recipient of such a title.

When Prince Henry, The Duke of Gloucester died in 1974, and his son and daughter-in-law became the current Duke and Duchess, Princess Alice did not want to be known as a "Dowager".....
She petitioned The Queen to be known as 'Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester' (without the "The") and The Queen complied.


Also, several ladies were never known as "Dowagers" - - Queen Adelaide, Queen Alexandra, Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth...
The latter preferred 'Queen Mother'...

Larry

Offline eejm

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Re: Precedence
« Reply #84 on: November 12, 2007, 04:31:24 PM »
Hi,

The title "Dowager" is not always appreciated by the recipient of such a title.

When Prince Henry, The Duke of Gloucester died in 1974, and his son and daughter-in-law became the current Duke and Duchess, Princess Alice did not want to be known as a "Dowager".....
She petitioned The Queen to be known as 'Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester' (without the "The") and The Queen complied.


Also, several ladies were never known as "Dowagers" - - Queen Adelaide, Queen Alexandra, Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth...
The latter preferred 'Queen Mother'...

Larry


Did those who objected not like the term because of an issue with age?  I can understand why "Queen Mother" would be preferable to "Dowager Queen."  The former rolls off the tongue much better than the latter, and has almost a warm, somewhat informal feeling to it.  Dowager Queen sounds very sterile to me.

Offline carl fraley

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Re: Precedence
« Reply #85 on: November 12, 2007, 10:26:38 PM »
HRH Princess Marina was also styled HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent after the present duke married

Offline Vecchiolarry

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Re: Precedence
« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2007, 01:18:20 PM »
Hi Eejm,

I would guess that some of these women wouldn't want to be known as "old"...
Dowager means "an elderly widow of property or position";  and perhaps they objected to the word "elderly"......

Just my opinion!

Larry

Offline CHRISinUSA

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Re: Precedence
« Reply #87 on: November 13, 2007, 07:17:21 PM »
HRH Princess Marina was also styled HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent after the present duke married

Marina's case was a bit different than Alice of Glouchester's.  In British usage, only the daughter or male-line granddaughter of a monarch can use the title Princess before their own Christian name (ie.  Princess Anne, or Princess Alexandra).  Marina, however, was born a Princess of Greece and Denmark, and held that title in her own right as a male line grandchild of the King of the Hellenes.  After George's death, she simply reverted to her own title.

Alice was born a commoner.  After her husband's death, her choices were "Princess Henry, Duchess of Glouchester" or "The Dowager Duchess of Glouchester", or "Alice, Duchess of Glouchester."  (But the first form is rarely used, and the last form often indicates a divorcee).  The Queen did not create Alice as a Princess in her own right (by Letters Patent), but simply allowed her aunt to use the form by courtesy. 

Offline CHRISinUSA

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Re: Precedence
« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2007, 07:45:49 PM »
Hi,

The title "Dowager" is not always appreciated by the recipient of such a title.  Also, several ladies were never known as "Dowagers" - - Queen Adelaide, Queen Alexandra, Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth...The latter preferred 'Queen Mother'...

Queen Dowager is a title or status held by the widow of a deceased king.  Queen Regnants aside, The "Queen" indicates someone who was a queen consort (i.e. wife of a king), while "Dowager" indicates a widow who holds the title from her deceased husband.

A Queen Mother is a particular type of Queen Dowager who is both a former queen consort AND the mother of the current monarch. Every Queen Mother is also a Queen Dowager, but the opposite is not true.  For example, Queen Adelaide (consort of William IV) was a Queen Dowager but not a Queen Mother - since it was her neice rather than her child who succeeded her husband.

Finally, it is entirely possible for there to be one Queen Mother and one or more Queen Dowagers alive at any one time. This situation occurred in the UK from 6 February 1952 until the death of Queen Mary in 1953. For slightly over a year, there were three Queens:

Queen Elizabeth II, the reigning monarch
Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother (who reportedly loathed being referred to as a "Dowager Queen").
Queen Mary, who had been Queen Mother between 1936 and 1952, but from 1936 always used the style "Her Majesty Queen Mary."

The Garter King of Arms proclamation of the styles and titles of Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother at her funeral on 9 April 2002 illustrates her dual status as a queen dowager and a queen mother:
"Thus it hath pleased Almighty God to take out of this transitory life unto His Divine Mercy the late Most High, Most Mighty and Most Excellent Princess Elizabeth, Queen Dowager and Queen Mother, Lady of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Lady of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Lady of the Imperial Order of the Crown of India, Grand Master and Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order upon whom had been conferred the Royal Victorian Chain, Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, Dame Grand Cross of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John, Relict of His Majesty King George the Sixth and Mother of Her Most Excellent Majesty Elizabeth The Second by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, Sovereign of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, whom may God preserve and bless with long life, health and honour and all worldly happiness."