Author Topic: Anna Anderson's Story 2  (Read 27870 times)

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Offline Margarita Markovna

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Anna Anderson's Story 2
« on: March 02, 2006, 11:10:20 AM »
Other one took much too long to load...

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2006, 01:40:34 PM »
Quote
Belochka,
When I said the idea that there was a betray was not new, here it the passage from Kurth to which I was referring.
 P 58 of the book.  "At Ekaterinburg", the Inspector Grunberg explained, a rescue of the imperial family had been planned which, however, as Anastasia claims, was betrayed to the Bolsheviks by the lady in waiting Baroness Buxhoeveden, in an attempt to save her own life."  Said Anastasia, "That there had been a betrayal was clear to us. We spoke about it often in prison.  And then....."  Anastasia herself had cut off that sentence.  Where had "Isa" been when they all needed her?  she asked, calling the Baroness by the nickname the imperial family had always used.
"I must always think how Papa and Mamma sat there in Ekaterinburg and said that they could not undersdtand why Isa had changecd so during the last time in Tobolsk.
I hope that clears thing up for you about my post.


Quote

Since we know, now, that AA wasn't GD Anastasia,  and, she might have been FS, then how would she know anything about what Buxhovenden did in Ekaterinburg?

Perhaps,  this was some kind of pay back from the time Buxhoveden pulled AA out of bed and said she was too short to be Tatiana ....

It is my opinion that anything AA tells us about Buxhoveden be dismissed since it was impossible for her to know what Buxhoveden did at any time accept at their meeting in Dalldorf, and, then,  I would tend to believe Buxhoveden before AA.

AGRBear


Read her story:
http://alexanderpalace.org/leftbehind/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

helenazar

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Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2006, 02:15:23 PM »
The discussion about "Buxhoveden theories in FOTR" has been transferred over to the FOTR thread (http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Books;action=display;num=1080907570;start=325#325) in order to avoid having two identical discussions at the same time. If anyone would like to discuss this further, or read the other discussion, please see the other thread. This thread is about Anna Anderson's story, not theories in FOTR... Thanks!

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2006, 02:49:17 PM »
The story between AA and Buxhoeveden is different than what relationship Buxhoeveden had with the IF.   So,  I think this part, AA and Buxhoeveden relationship,  needs to remain here and the discussion continue.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2[quote author=Annie lin
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2006, 05:15:59 PM »
Quote
Thanks Raegan:)

I was rereading John Godl's article, and I found this.

The Russian Refugee Office in Berlin, presided over by Serge Botkin, represented the interests of exiles in Germany and came to the aid of Anderson (then calling herself Mrs Tschaikovsky). The organization was basically a monarchist support group and the suicidally depressed woman soon found herself embraced by sympathetic exiles, many sending or bringing her flowers, sweets and letters of encouragement.

I hadn't noticed this! Gleb's uncle the head of the Russian emigre' community in Berlin, very interesting.

once again, the entire article:

http://www.serfes.org/royal/annaanderson.htm

The more I see, the more I find iceberg size holes in AA's claim from all angles. The only 'mystery' and 'unanswered question' left is how she managed to pull off this charade for so long, and who all helped her. Of course, none of them are going to admit it, even in diaries, it would be confessing to fraud. That would leave them jailed in their lifetimes, and disgraced in death. But that doesn't mean they didn't do it. Somebody helped her, because she was not AN.



I am not sure what Serge's Botkin's assocation with the Russian Refugee Office has to do with his belief or disbelief of  AA's claims.  Either he believed she was or he believed she wasn't.  

It was not Serge who brought AA to the attention of the  association, it was Schwabe through his contact with Clara Peuthers.

Sometimes,  I think some of you try to hard to link all the Botkins into some kind of conspiracy.

By this time Gleb Botkin was in the US and would not return for six long years.  Doesn't sound like someone who is deeply involved in trying to prove AA was GD Anastasia.

Godl also wrote the following:
>>During the 1920's she was almost constantly in and out of one German hospital or another, mental or general. We can only speculate whether during any of these frequent spells away from prying eyes if Anderson underwent cosmetic surgery of some sort, to create or enhance features and flaws to match those of the real Anastasia.<<

I am not sure that Godl's report on Anna Anderson is not without it's flaws.  He makes statements  without giving us a shred of evidence or he speculates and gives us no reasoning behind his speculations.

Maybe he does in his book.  I have not read it.  Only the portion given us us by Annie on the web site.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2[quote author=Annie lin
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2006, 09:24:58 AM »
Quote

Sometimes,  I think some of you try to hard to link all the Botkins into some kind of conspiracy.


Bear, you believe in every other wild goose chase, grabbing at straws, 'think outside the box' conspiracy theory there is, even tunnels, so how can you rule it out and shut your 'box' to it? You say you want 'the truth' and everything to be explored, but you quickly slam the lid on anything that is not in favor of AA's claim. Your posts prove this, so don't bother to deny it.

Quote
By this time Gleb Botkin was in the US and would not return for six long years.  Doesn't sound like someone who is deeply involved in trying to prove AA was GD Anastasia.


Nobody really knows what he was doing all that time. There were telephones and letters, and airplanes and boats. It is very probable he did visit and maintain contact with his uncle during that time.


Quote
I am not sure that Godl's report on Anna Anderson is not without it's flaws.  He makes statements  without giving us a shred of evidence or he speculates and gives us no reasoning behind his speculations.


To me, sensible deductive reasoning and logic make much more sense than a thousand quotes from "File on the Tsar" or "Riddle of Anastasia." Just because something was written into a book and you can quote the page doesn't make it valid proof, only proof somebody said it. They could very well be wrong.


Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2006, 09:46:15 AM »
Quote

To me, sensible deductive reasoning and logic make much more sense than a thousand quotes from "File on the Tsar" or "Riddle of Anastasia." Just because something was written into a book and you can quote the page doesn't make it valid proof, only proof somebody said it. They could very well be wrong.



Amen to that!

When it comes to AA, everything is just a theory, except the DNA results.  Some are less believable than others, but the possibility that the Botkins were using AA for their own gains is a very distinct one.  It's no conspiracy; it's just a theory.  No, we have no definite proof, but according to some people, no names mentioned, the DNA still isn't enough proof, so when it comes down to it, I don't really know what can be considered good enough 'evidence' for some of you people.

Rachel
xx

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2006, 11:38:46 AM »
Yep, I am more than willing to think outside the box on this subject or any other subject. ;D

So,  let's work with Godl speculation:

Godl also wrote the following:
>>During the 1920's she was almost constantly in and out of one German hospital or another, mental or general. We can only speculate whether during any of these frequent spells away from prying eyes if Anderson underwent cosmetic surgery of some sort, to create or enhance features and flaws to match those of the real Anastasia.<<

Is there any evidence that AA changed her apperance?

I think someone said she plucked/pulled at the hair to change her hairline or had a nervous habit of pulling at her hair.  

She had some teeth removed which was said to be because the injury to her jaw.

I don't recall sources for either.  When I find them,  I'll add them here.

What else do you, Annie, Ra-Ra-Rasputin, Godl and others think she changed?  Nose?  Eyes?

This may be a stupid question,  but not being a physician,  I'm not sure the answer.  What kind of facial changes did doctors do back in the early 1900s?  Today,  we don't think anything at all about someone making facial changes but that is today.  I remember it was just in the 1960s that facial changes started.  Probably with the advancement of medical knowledge used on the vets of  Vietnam.  During WWI they were just discovered blood transfusion.....

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2006, 12:01:34 PM »
AA definitely bit her lips in photos to make them appear thinner, and she also posed in similar positions to ones AN had done; the same angle of the head, the same smile and so on.  Peter Kurth uses some of these pictures alongside the corresponding ones of AN in his book, and it's obvious that she was trying very hard to get the right 'look'.

What interests me is that AA never adopted AN's fringe.  AN had a scar on her forehead that prompted Alexandra to always have AN's hair cut with a fringe, unlike the other girls.  Why would she suddenly have decided not to have a fringe, and where did the scar go?

I doubt very much that she had any type of facial surgery.  Cosmetic surgery was pioneered, I believe, during the First World War, but used exclusively for repairing facial injuries sustained in combat.  Altering the face to appear like someone else was not done at that time as far as I know, and also, AA's facial features were so unlike AN's that if she did have surgery, she wasted her money.  It is an interesting theory but there just isn't any evidence to back this up.  Yes she was in hospitals a lot of the time, but she was very weak with her TB so I doubt it would have been safe to perform unnecessary surgeries on her.  I also doubt that surgery was sufficiently advanced to make subtle alterations without severe scarring that would have been very noticeable.

Rachel
xx  

ChatNoir

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Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2006, 11:19:56 AM »
So the good Mr. Godl thought that AA and AN looked so much alike that there could be a question of plastic surgery.
How interesting.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2006, 07:55:50 PM »
Oh dear, it looks like several posts in this thread were lost in the switchover. Oh my research! Somebody posted in response to Ra Ra's post that Anastasia did not have the fringe anymore by 1918 and that when AA was found in 1920 she said she had the same hairdo she had before her escape. This is not true, because AA's was long and twisted up in back, no bangs, parted on the side. In the last pics of AN you see, she has bangs, and short hair, as she, and her sisters had been shaved bald the year before due to measles. I guess AA didn't know about those head shavings, oops!

Kransnoeselo

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Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2006, 01:46:07 PM »
Hey

It was I who posted the comment about Anastasia's fringe.  I was refering to the
photograph of Anastasia in Tobolsk at the table looking down showing her profile.

It was Pierre Gillard who had commented that Anna Anderson must have seen that photograph when questioned regarding Anna's hair style which was the same as the Grand Duchess's.  Thereby indirecting confirming that Anna's hair resembled Anastasia's.  (He had seen Anna on several occassions and was witness to how her hair was styled prior to making this comment-Id assume that Pierre Gillard who was with Anastasia in Tobolsk would have said that Anna's hair in no way resembled Anastasia's rather than remarking that Anna must have seen a photograph to mimic it.  

Tim

Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2006, 02:17:12 PM »
What is THE last photo of Anastasia? Is it the one of her at the desk? I swear there is one after that.

Can someone please post the last known photo of Anastasia to clear up the fringe debate.  I really don't think she stopped adopting the fringe, but I'm willing to be corrected if shown photographic evidence.

Rachel
xx

Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2006, 05:40:30 PM »
Quote
What is THE last photo of Anastasia? Is it the one of her at the desk? I swear there is one after that.

Can someone please post the last known photo of Anastasia to clear up the fringe debate.  I really don't think she stopped adopting the fringe, but I'm willing to be corrected if shown photographic evidence.

Rachel
xx

This was in my long detailed post that unfortunately disappeared in the forum switchover. I seriously doubt that Gilliard would have said that AA's hair in the asylum was like AN's in Tobolsk, because AN WAS BALD! Remember, the royal children all had their heads shaved bald in 1917 because of the measles! He himself took the famous picture of the girls bald in the garden at Tsarskoe Selo, and he would have known she had very short hair in Tobolsk due to it not having time to grow back long. The reason the girls were seen in hats is because of their shorn heads. In 1918 in her last picture, she has short hair with bangs. So all this tells me Gilliard was misquoted and AA was foolish to say she wore her hair the same as AA in captivity because AN's was short and hers was long, parted on the side and twisted up in back! Poor AA didn't know about the head shavings, oops!

Here is AA when found: long, twisted up hair



with a hairline and part looking very similar to none other than Franziska Schanskowska



Anastasia's last known photo, short fluffy hair and sure looks like bangs to me!



Now, here's a picture of AN (left) with Tatiana, Alexei and Olga in  1918. Note their hairdos (short) and AN's bangs/fringe!



So there you go! :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

catt.sydney

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Re: Anna Anderson's Story 2
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2006, 07:18:38 PM »
Ahh yuuuuup!
Yet more debates on hairstyles and lips again...well the more that things change the more they stay the same ... These photos just don't look at all alike to me  --two bipedal caucasian female mammals - sorry but thats the best connection that I can make - my grandmother looked a good deal more like Annasasia Nicholaevna than does this Ms. Unknown.

 TRUST ME I am no secret heiress!