Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (Louis XX of France)

[tecklenburg]

Thanks Yseult :-)

Have you got some pictures showing Duque d'Anjou & Cadiz with Erzherzogin Constanza ?
It must have been terrible for her at Alfonso/Alphonse 's death. Has she kept contacts with the actual Duque d'Anjou?
I remember her on a picture at St denis when Louis XVII's heart was back. I may be wrong but I remember a picture of her, but where?

[Yseult]

No, I don´t have such a picture. But if I find any, I´ll post it.
About the second question you put, yes, Constanza keep contacts with the son of Alfonso. If I´m not wrong, Constanza and her husband were invited when Luis Alfonso married Margarita...

[REMI]

In his book:" Los Borbones incomodos"(2000), Juan BALANSO published a photo showing Duke of  Cadiz with Archduchess Constanza. In the same book, Balanso writes: "Una mujer enlutada sollozaba en los funerales del Duque de Cadiz: era l'archiduquesa Constanza de Austria".
The translation would be:" A woman mourning was in tears at funeral of the Duke of Cadiz: it was Archduchess of Austria Constanza".

REMI

[REMI]

Add that Luis Alfonso de Borbon was Constanza's godfather at her marriage with Franz Joseph von Auerspeg.

REMI

[tecklenburg]

Wow big thanks Remi & Yseult
what a nice attention from the young prince to Constanza...admirable.

[tecklenburg]

Hi everybody !

I found a picture on website http://www.noblesseetroyautes.com/nr01/
showing the princess of Auesperg Trautson (born Konstanza, Erzherzogin von Österreich, Prinzessin von Ungarn) with Duchess of Segovia & the royal family
how faithfull these people are through all heir sorows ! wow
The prince must be very king hearted toward the princess his wife to take part to Bourbon's events, wow
They should be given some title by the Duke of Anjou for everything ! This would be my small suggestion

[Lucien]

HRH Prince Louis Alfonso,legitimate claimant to the Throne of France,became a father of twins yesterday:
Louis,entitled Duc de Bourgogne and Alphonse,Duc de Berry.

The twins were born in NYC.

[Lucien]

The Dowager Duchess 'd-Anjou,Victoire Jeanne Joséphine Emmanuelle Pierre Marie de Dampierre,passed away aged 98 at the Palazzo Massimo,Rome.The Dowager Duchess was the grandmother of HRH The Duke 'dAnjou.

[Gabriel Antonio]

HRH Prince Louis Alfonso,legitimate claimant to the Throne of France,became a father of twins yesterday:
Louis,entitled Duc de Bourgogne and Alphonse,Duc de Berry.

The twins were born in NYC.

Are the titles for these children considered "legal" in any way, or are they considered private family titles of ancestors which can be used by descendants? I mean no disrespect to anyone by asking this.
Also, am I correct King Juan Carlos of Spain does not like these titles being used by his cousin's family, along with the title Louis XX?
The last Duc de Bourgogne I know of was the oldest grandson of Louis XV, Louis (1751-1761.) And, before that, Louis XV's father Louis (1682-1712)
The last Duc de Berry I know of was Charles Ferdinand (1778-1820) the younger of two sons of Charles X, King of France. And, before that, Louis XVI was known as the Duc de Berry from his birth in 1754 to his ascension as king in 1774.

[Превед]

Are the titles for these children considered "legal" in any way, or are they considered private family titles of ancestors which can be used by descendants?

In French law they are treated like family heirlooms, for practical purposes accessories to surnames, which enjoy a certain legal protection. Which means that these dukes can sue you in French courts if you start calling yourself Duc d'Anjou, Berry, Bourgogne etc., the courts will find in their favour and may punish you. The general consensus is that the French Republic has abolished nobility, but not noble titles. So it's quite similar to the modern German custom, where titles are just surnames, though the system is less streamlined in France, where the original rules as to inheritance and use apply, something which also seems to avoid the abuses (by dubious adult adoptees and divorcé(e)s) seen in the German system.

See heraldist François Velde's excellent explanation.

[Gabriel Antonio]

Thank you. (I cannot use your name because I do not know the Cyrillic alphabet. Excuse me.)
I appreciate your explanation, and also the link you kindly provided to heraldist Velde's explanation- which is very interesting, detailed and fascinating to read through the historical periods in French history.

The questions/comments I ask next are made with respect to everyone in these families, currently living or not, including Louis Alphonse's immediate family members who tragically died in the 1980s.
 My follow up questions are (for anyone to respond)
Prior to these twin boys born in 2010, have these titles been used "legally" by anyone, Duc de Bourgogne after 1761 to 2010, and Duc de Berry after 1820 to 2010?
Are the legalities of these titles why Louis d"Orleans (1773 -1850) King of the French from 1830 to 1848 and head of the Junior Orleans branch (this is what I had always thought it was called) of the French royal family, did not give titles to his several sons born between 1810 and 1824 the Senior French branch of the Bourbon dynasty had been using prior to 1789? If I am wrong and these titles have been used- please correct me.
For example, Louis Alphonse's title Anjou, and those he has designated for his sons born in 2010; I do not believe these have been used for many, many years. Another example-wasn't Louis XVII the Duc de Normandy from 1785 to 1793 and this title of the last French Bourbon son born prior to 1789 has not been used since?

Could any grandsons, great grandsons, etc. of King Juan Carlos of Spain descended through his son also be given these titles if someone currently alive is not using them? It seems to me they could, considering Louis Alphonse's title and those given to his twin sons.

 I am not trying to create a debate here- (instead, a discussion) but I believe there are those who may consider Louis Alphonse, Duc de Anjou (interesting this was also the title of the first French born Bourbon King of Spain in 1700) a member of the Spanish royal family (descended from Phillip V up to Alphonso XIII as is King Juan Carlos- if I am wrong please correct me) and not of the deposed French royal family. Or, there are those, despite the renunciation by Phillip in 1700 to the French throne,  who may consider the entire Spanish royal family (since the Senior French branch descended from Phillip's older brother- Louis, Duc de Bourgogne- died out out in 1883) also the deposed Senior French royal family as they are all descended from Louis XIV through his second grandson Phillip V while the Orleans branch are descended first from Louis XIV's younger brother. (I know they are also descended from Louis XIV through his legitimized daughter in the next generation.)
If anyone is asking what point I am trying to make here-
I am wondering how these possible differing (legal) opinions regarding persons being considered descendants of French and/or Spanish (from French) Bourbon Royalty relates to the potential legalities of these ancient and revered titles being used in the 21st century.

[Превед]

Thank you. (I cannot use your name because I do not know the Cyrillic alphabet. Excuse me.)

That's all right. It transcibes as Prived, a Russian Internet meme.

As regards your further questions, the Orléanist claimants traditionally only use titles that have been linked with the Duchy of Orleans. The Legitimst claimants have traditionally used Spanish titles, because they played a more prominent role as Carlist claimants. A notable break with this happened when the current Orléanist pretender, the Count of Paris, made his nephew Duc d'Anjou in 2004. BTW the current Legitimist pretender's father was titled Duc de Bourgogne, the same as his infant grandson.

François Velde has lots of info about this too.