Author Topic: what ever happend to jimmy?....her beloved dog  (Read 18570 times)

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mister charli£

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Re: what ever happend to jimmy?....her beloved dog
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2008, 10:35:34 AM »
ohhhh i just read the very intresting tread you recomended

Offline Holly

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Re: what ever happend to jimmy?....her beloved dog
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2008, 12:31:39 PM »
There's no proof that Anastasia took Jemmy into the cellar. Some say there was a little dog in the room, some say there wasn't. I've heard that Anastasia had hidden Jemmy in her muff and he was knocked out and killed when he was found. I've also read that he was killed after they were. There's no way to know for sure if he was killed with them in the cellar or not.

Also, I've seen people refer to Ortino as "Ortipo". Perhaps someone got this idea because the english 'n' looks similar to a Russian 'p'?  ???
"Господь им дал дар по молитвам их размягчать окаменелые наши сердца за их страдания..Мне думается, что если люди будут молиться Царской Cемье, оттают сердца с Божией помощью."

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Offline Sarushka

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Re: what ever happend to jimmy?....her beloved dog
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2008, 06:57:18 PM »
Also, I've seen people refer to Ortino as "Ortipo". Perhaps someone got this idea because the english 'n' looks similar to a Russian 'p'?  ???

The Russian book, Sisters of Mercy, consistently prints the dog's name as "Ortipo". I've almost always seen it printed as "Ortino" in English, but it's hard to imagine the editors of Sisters of Mercy could have goofed it up that many times after looking at the original Russian documents. Perhaps we've had it wrong in English all along!

Since she's had access to the GDss letters and diaries at GARF, I've asked Raegan about the Ortino/Ortipo issues. She didn't know offhand and hasn't gotten back to me yet, but hopefully she'll be able to unearth some hints.
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Offline Forum Admin

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Re: what ever happend to jimmy?....her beloved dog
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2008, 08:43:21 PM »
For what its worth, Spiridovitch called him "Ortino"

tatianolishka_1

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Re: what ever happend to jimmy?....her beloved dog
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2008, 02:39:21 PM »
Yay, I subject I can post on! :) If y'all won't mind, I'll just sum up what some of you said here.

There were five dogs that, over the course of time, belonged to the Imperial children. Shibzik, Jemmy, the two Ortinos, and Joy.

Shibzik was a Japanese Chin who died of a brain tumor in 1912-1914, I believe (if someone could clear this up I'd be extremely grateful). Jemmy was a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, a gift to Tatiana from Anna Vyrubova in 1915-ish. At that time, she already had Ortino, and Anastasia took care of Jemmy and was therefore "her" dog. It is believed he died with Anastasia in 1918. The remains of a dog that Gilliard identified as Jemmy were found in a mineshaft near the gravesite, however wether it really was Jemmy is up to debate. The rate of decomposition for the corpse showed the dog had only been buried a few weeks before, in 1920ish. So... ???

The first Ortino was a French bulldog - a gift to Tatiana from Dmitri Malama, a soldier she nursed in WWI. This Ortino died shortly after, from what is not known, and Dmitri "replaced" the dog with another bulldog. This one survived until 1918, when it is described that a soldier bayonetted the dog because he wouldn't stop barking.

Joy, the only dog known to have come out of the murder room alive, was found by the White Army and taken to England. He had apparently gone deaf or blind, and lived out the rest of his life far from his Russian homeland.

Thank you very much mitia for acknowledging my post in "the fact that his dog survived...". Makes me feel smart : )

I get my reference to the two Ortino's from a letter Alexandra wrote, saying how Ortino had died and Dmitri had replaced the dog. If I ever find that letter again I'll send it to you.

Offline nena

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Re: what ever happend to jimmy?....her beloved dog
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2008, 06:47:32 AM »
Tatianolishka_1----thank you so much. I finally know what happened with Imperial Pets.
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Offline Holly

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Re: what ever happend to jimmy?....her beloved dog
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2008, 04:57:02 PM »
Shibzik was a Japanese Chin who died of a brain tumor in 1912-1914, I believe (if someone could clear this up I'd be extremely grateful). Jemmy was a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, a gift to Tatiana from Anna Vyrubova in 1915-ish. At that time, she already had Ortino, and Anastasia took care of Jemmy and was therefore "her" dog. It is believed he died with Anastasia in 1918. The remains of a dog that Gilliard identified as Jemmy were found in a mineshaft near the gravesite, however wether it really was Jemmy is up to debate. The rate of decomposition for the corpse showed the dog had only been buried a few weeks before, in 1920ish. So... ???

It's name was Shvibzik and it died in 1915.

I thought Jemmy was given to Tatiana in 1917? Also, if it was frozen the rate of decomposition could've been only a few weeks so that could account for it. I've never heard any debate as to whether it was Jemmy or not. Only when he was killed.
"Господь им дал дар по молитвам их размягчать окаменелые наши сердца за их страдания..Мне думается, что если люди будут молиться Царской Cемье, оттают сердца с Божией помощью."

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tatianolishka_1

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Re: what ever happend to jimmy?....her beloved dog
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2008, 05:07:24 PM »
It's just from the fact that, although Gilliard ID'd the dog as Jemmy, the decomp rate didn't match up. It is possible that the Siberian temperature could've halted the decomp rate, but I'm not a forensic scientist so I wouldn't know much about that :-)

I don't know the exact date that Tatiana was given the first Ortino. The letters I've found suggest sometime in the Autumn of 1914 - “Forgive me about the little dog.  To say the truth, when he asked should I like to have it if he gave it me, I at once said yes.  You remember I always wanted to have one, and only afterwards when we came home I thought that suddenly you might not like me having one."(TN to AF 30 September 1914)

Greg King posted this in a thread awhile back:

Quote
Ortino was given to Tatiana in 1914 by Dimitri Malama.  She wrote to her mother: “Forgive me about the little dog.  To say the truth, when he asked should I like to have it if he gave it me, I at once said yes.  You remember I always wanted to have one, and only afterwards when we came home I thought that suddenly you might not like me having one."(TN to AF 30 September 1914)

But Ortino seems to have lived for less than a year; Alexandra noted his death in a cable to Nicholas on 5 September 1915.(AF to N, 5 September 1915)  When Dimitri Malama learnt of this, he apparently arranged for another English Bulldog to be delivered to Tatiana; she promptly named him Ortino as well.  I've never seen any reference to two different dogs given the same name, but if you look at the family’s correspondence it seems that this is exactly what happened.  See AF to N, 28 November, 1915; and AF to N, 17 March 1916.