Author Topic: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family  (Read 394107 times)

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Offline TimM

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #375 on: June 28, 2014, 04:06:41 PM »
Quote
In memory of
Franz Ferdinand von Österreich-Este
(* 18th July 1863 in Graz; † 28th. June 1914 in Sarajevo)

and

Sophie Chotek von Chotkova und Wognin, Herzogin von Hohenberg
( * 1st March 1868 in Stuttgart; † 28th. June 1914 in Sarajevo)

on the 100th. anniversary of the tragic events of
Sunday, 28th. June 1914 in Sarajevo

I couldn't agree more, Monika.
Cats: You just gotta love them!

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #376 on: June 28, 2014, 06:06:05 PM »
Dear Janet you have your own right to defend Masaryk even Benes, each one has its own view point, but I am not making false history. Thomas Masaryk betrayed the monarchy and his legitimate sovereign, when he left Prague and joined the allies in Paris, with Benes they started right away their propaganda war against their Sovereign Franz Josef at the time, they were trying to convince London, Paris and Washington to support a Czech national state independent from the monarchy, that's high teason. It is obvious that all those who were suspected from that felony were persecuted, as it is persecute by the American authorities the man who revealed secrets from the Department of State. President Wilson until the end of 1917 wasn't in favour of the Czechs, but people from his inner circle were closed to both Masaryk and Benes who travelled to London and Washington to convince their authorities to support their activities, even the organization of a so-call "Free Czech Army". In 1916 Thomas Masaryk participated in Paris as the main speaker with Benes of an international conference of Free Masons, which they gave full support to these two Bohemian traitors. According with His Imperial Highness Archduke Otto, who was a good friend of my father, Masaryk accepted a membership to the French Free Masonry, Benes was already a member since very young. Regarding the recess of the Austrian parliament, was just for two years, in 1916, Blessed Kaiser Karl sign a decree asking the Parliament to start discussions about the future of the Empire and the state of the war. What Masaryk and Benes did after the defeat of Austria Hungary and the collapsed of the monarchy in relation with the Emperor and King and his family was outrageous, they convinced Georges Clemenceau not no sent them a single penny, the Emperor almost died in starvation in Madeira in 1922, Countess Ilke Széchényi mother was with them, and she remembers that they had almost nothing to east, they survived thanks to friends in Europe and Portuguese peasants who gave them food. Masaryk in 1919 ordered the three children of Franz Ferdinand and Sophie Chotek to leave right away Konopischt, they were not allowed to take anything even their clothes and photo albums, wasn't the behaviour of a decent man, moreover is the behaviour of a person with no moral and ethics and even no respect to orphans, Georg Duke von Hohenberg can give you more details of the nightmare that their father, uncle and aunt went through thanks to the "Czech patriots", more or less the same ordeal, that they went with the Nazis. The children were treated as criminals, to the point that King Albert I of Belgium was extremely upset and furious, His Majesty wrote a strong letter to Masaryk about this horrendous incident. Their parents were both fluent in Czech, the Archduke Franz Ferdinand learned Czech when he was in Prague, and when they were at the Belvedere or any other of their proprieties, sometimes they spoke in Czech if they didn't want that third people knew what they were taliking about. Were times, when most of the Czech intellectuals didn't speak a word of their own language, like Franz Kafka and many others. My grandfather went to Madeira in 1921 and he was horrified and appalled with the living conditions of the Imperial family, he was Otto Freiherr von Wetzler. If you want to get in touch with Isabel Princess Auersperg, if you write me in private I can give you her email address and phone, she will confirm all what I wrote here, baisemain LvW

I think we will have to agree to differ on this. If, following your argument, the Austro-Hungarian government (which was actually no friend at all to the Hohenbergs either) had the right to persecute Masaryk's family on the basis of his opposition to the war - and, indeed, suspect and investigate the whole of the "Slovene nation" on the basis of who knows what, another topic again - then it surely follows that the legitimate Czechoslovak government of 1919, which certainly had the right to nationalise Habsburg property in the name of thousands and thousands of starving, war-weary people, could also suspect and act upon the association between the Hohenbergs and the nobles believed to be funding and encouraging the separatist movement in the borderlands - notably, the Nostitz-Rieneck family. I know the Hohenbergs have their stories about the confiscation of Konopiste, but there are two sides to every tale, and it all starts of course with Franz Ferdinand's period as landowner at Konopiste, when he closed off or diverted public paths, set up barbed wire and prosecuted trespassers assiduously. This is the origin of some of the anger his children experienced locally in 1918 from "Czech patriots", and which first caused the government first to take the castle under its protection. Obviously, your contacts will have a different perspective on this, as one would expect. However, to compare Masaryk's government with the Nazis is pretty appalling. Let's not forget that one Hohenberg child was actually married to a Nazi, and many of their friends and ardent acquaintances in Bohemia also leaned to that camp through hatred of what they called the "un-state" of Czechoslovakia. And they all learned the hard way that losing some small portion of your plentiful lands to the Czechoslovak government was the least worst option.

I have always found the history of central Europe in the twentieth century to be unbelievably sad and awful, and I think that people in the countries involved are doing a wonderful job of building a future. I don't see what's to be gained in demonising and generalising about entire nations and dismissing them as godless because things which happened in the misery of a century ago.

But I do appreciate your "baisemain"; a charming, courteous, gesture. :-)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 06:07:57 PM by Janet Ashton »
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #377 on: June 28, 2014, 06:09:46 PM »
The handgun used to kill them, the car they were riding in and the tunic he was wearing are in the Austrian army museum in Vienna

Offline Marc

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #378 on: June 29, 2014, 05:30:39 AM »
Very interesting interview Karl von Habsburg gave to Guardian regarding Franz Feridnand and world war I:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/15/archduke-franz-ferdinand-first-world-war

Offline Dru

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #379 on: July 04, 2014, 06:28:03 PM »




Two more portraits of the Hohenberg children.

Offline TimM

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #380 on: July 05, 2014, 04:08:23 PM »
What lovely pictures, Amanda.

Those three children were the real victims here.  They lost their parents, and then everything they knew was taken from them.
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Offline Dru

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #381 on: July 09, 2014, 10:22:02 AM »
I'm glad you like the portraits, Tim.  I know I was excited to happen upon them; portraits of the children are not easy to find.

Here is another photo Franz Ferdinand and his family:


Offline Превед

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #382 on: July 24, 2014, 05:03:56 AM »
I've just returned from a trip to Germany, Austria, Poland and Bohemia where I had the chance to visit Konopiště / Konopischt. Unfortunately I was too late to tour the castle (Česky Krumlov / Böhmisch Krummau was too interesting), but was able to have good look around the grounds. While the castle itself seemed well restored, I was a bit surprised to see the lovely garden itself somewhat unkempt and the tourist infrastructure somewhat makeshift (like I remember it was in Norway in the 1990s). Even sadder were the bears kept in the moat (just like at the Schwarzenberg castle in Česky Krumlov / Böhmisch Krummau) and the birds of prey kept chained up below the castle (I thought the shrieking sounds were peacocks and was shocked to discover ca. 15 eagles, hawks, falcons and owls chained up on a little terrace.)

Ironically lacking was also in-depth information in several languages (considering that the occupant of the castle was the heir of the most mulit-lingual empire) and the talking map that gave information in Czech, English and German had some errors in its German version (monogamisch instead of morganatisch! and Nachfolger instead of Thronfolger). I was also surprised to find that the lake below the castle was gone, but it seemed it had been drained for maintenance. Hopefully the rest of the park will also be given a makeover for the centennary of its significance in world history.
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Wenzel

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #383 on: September 10, 2014, 01:10:26 AM »
Janet you are saying "I know the Hohenbergs have their stories about the confiscation of Konopischt, but there are two sides to every tale, and it all starts of course with Franz Ferdinand's period as landowner at Konopisht, when he closed off or diverted public paths, set up barbed wire and prosecuted trespassers assiduously. This is the origin of some of the anger his children experienced locally in 1918 from "Czech patriots", and which first caused the government first to take the castle under its protection. Obviously, your contacts will have a different perspective on this, as one would expect. However, to compare Masaryk's government with the Nazis is pretty appalling. Let's not forget that one Hohenberg child was actually married to a Nazi, and many of their friends and ardent acquaintances in Bohemia also leaned to that camp through hatred of what they called the "un-state" of Czechoslovakia. And they all learned the hard way that losing some small portion of your plentiful lands to the Czechoslovak government was the least worst option." This is utterly not true at all, both sons Max and Ernest were sent to the Concentration Camp of Dachau by the Nazis in 1938, they were forced to work in horrendous conditions, in fact one of the brothers in spite of surviving the war, he died very young due to all the illness and suffering that he faced during the seven years of prisoners of the Nazis, Ernst and Max, the other one survived more time, but he never forgot and he never recovered completely from those years of persecution, their sister was many times arrested with her husband Count Nostitz due to their open support to Archduke Otto and Empress Zita, which left Belgium in 1940 and found exile in the USA and Canada with the entire Imperial family, because all the sons and daughters from Blessed Kaiser Karl and Empress Zita were condemned to death by Hitler, they returned to Europe with the allies in 1944, only the Heir to the Throne Otto returned later with his mother Empress Zita. No one of the spouses of both princes Hohenberg and Count Nostitz-Rieneck were Nazis, this accusation is utterly false and has lack of evidences and proof" Yours indeed L

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #384 on: September 10, 2014, 02:59:46 AM »
Wenzel, welcome.

What you have to say is very interesting. It is well known that Max and Ernst von Hohenberg both spent time in Dachau in consequence of their anti-Nazi activities, but some of the other points you make are not so well known. Could you set out your sources please.

Ann

Wenzel

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #385 on: September 10, 2014, 04:00:26 AM »
Georg von Hohenberg who happens to be a friend of us, his cousin Franz Ferdinand von Wuthenau, whose father left Germany in the eve of World War II and was until recently the President of Saint Andrew's University in Buenos Aires, furthermore Count Max von Thurn Valsassina a former Austrian ambassador, close friend to the brothers and sister who share their fate in Dachau, but he was able to escape before the war started and after travelling in hidding through Austria and Switzerland was able to reach with his Argentine wife Dolly Zorraquin a steamship in Genoa Italy, and travelled with Princess Mathilde Kinsky, née Baroness von dem Busshe who was also escaping with her son from the Gestapo. You can read "The fall of the House of Habsburg" by Edward Crankshaw, "Franz Ferdinand and Sophie" by the French academician Jean Sévilliia, and I would advice if you are in Rome to ask permission to the Vatican Library and Archives to read documents, and letters from Pope Pius XII who did his best to obtain the liberation of the two brothers, I had been in Rome and I stayed for an entire week consulsting and searching the archives and library thanks to our relation with Cardinal Jorge Mejia, who was the director at the time (early 2003). I hope is enough, even my aunt Hedwig von Böhm share the trauma of both brothers and their sister Sophia..

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #386 on: September 12, 2014, 06:54:26 AM »
No one of the spouses of both princes Hohenberg and Count Nostitz-Rieneck were Nazis, this accusation is utterly false and has lack of evidences and proof" Yours indeed L

Hi Wenzel
        Are you saying that the line "Friedrich Nostitz-Rieneck joined the Nazi Party in an effort to keep his family safe" (Assassination of the Archduke, 267) is incorrect? It does not seem that his great-niece objected to this line when she read the manuscript.

The point I was making in my first post is that the opposition of people in these aristocratic German-speaking circles in Bohemia to the new state of Czecholavakia was in part responsible for the success of the Nazis, and thus some of them found themselves faced with horrible choices. Some were actively happy to make such choices (and I will refer here to Alfons Clary-Adringen and his sister "Elisalex" Bailet-Latour, who spoke with great sentimentality throughout their lives of Franz Ferdinand's family, and of their "lost leader", and were both enthusiastic Nazis from early on, despite the privileges which they had obained from the Czechoslavak state through the intervention of Jan Masrayk in questions about the Aldringen estates in North Bohemia during Land Reform).  

This is why I objected to people flinging such terms as "Nazi" in the direction of the never-perfect, but ultimately democratic Czechoslovak government of that era. If individuals like Clary-Aldringen, and indeed the Nostitz-Rieneck family, who were suspected of separatist inclinations in 1918, had been able to make the best of the new world, rather than forever hankering for the Habsburg Empire, and actively and aggressively undermining the state they found themselves living in, it would have been much better for everyone.

Best

Janet

« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 07:12:37 AM by Janet Ashton »
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.

Wenzel

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #387 on: September 12, 2014, 07:39:05 AM »
Never in their lives Count and Countess von Nostitz Rieneck were "separatists", in the meaning that you are giving to his word, they were loyal subjects of the Blessed Kaiser Karl I and IV Apostolic King of Hungary and Bohemia, both went lots of times with Sophia's brothers Max and Ernest to the castle where the Emperor and Empress Zita lived before being forced to leave Austria, under British protection. Archduke Otto in the 1930's visited their cousins in Arstetten many times, and Otto and his sister Adelaide stayed at their home in Salzburg. They were completely monarchists and loyal to their Emperor and King and when Kaiser Karl passed away in Madeira due to his sufferings, the brothers and sister sent a beautiful letter to the Empress and their children. Count Nostitz was against the Anschluss and both were arrested by the Gestapo many times, even they lived under house arrest for a long period of time. My sources are Georg Herzog von Hohenberg and his cousin Franz Ferdinand baron von Wuthenau, and even my father who pay a visit to the Countess in the early sixties.











Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #388 on: September 12, 2014, 07:43:52 AM »
Wenzel

Thank you for your reply.

Ann


Offline Превед

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Re: Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Countess Sophie and their family
« Reply #389 on: September 12, 2014, 03:57:02 PM »
This is why I objected to people flinging such terms as "Nazi" in the direction of the never-perfect, but ultimately democratic Czechoslovak government of that era. If individuals like Clary-Aldringen, and indeed the Nostitz-Rieneck family, who were suspected of separatist inclinations in 1918, had been able to make the best of the new world, rather than forever hankering for the Habsburg Empire, and actively and aggressively undermining the state they found themselves living in, it would have been much better for everyone.

Anyone who knows if there was the same problem in the Slovakian part, with Hungarian aristocrats?
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)