Alexei's wife?

[crazy_wing]

The Italian girls would be nice choices too but I highly doubt they would convert.  Mafalda is too old.  Maybe Giovanna (1907) would be more suitable in terms of age.  

Other princesses around same age as Alexei:
Beatriz of Spain (1909)
Astrid of Sweden (1905)

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

I would imagine it would have been unlikely that Alexei would have lived long enough to marry even if the revolution had not have happened.  He nearly died at Spala, and as he grew older it was harder and harder for Alexandra to stop him from injuring himself.  As sad as that may be, I doubt he would have lived to see 20 regardless.  Even so, I will join in the conjecture.

I doubt Missy would have wanted Ileana to marry Alexei and so I think she would have put a stop to any plans there.  She adored Ileana, and marrying her off into the most unstable monarchy in the world would hardly have been her idea of a good marriage. Ileana would have been under constant threat and revolution was always a possibility in Russia.  I can't see Missy willingly allowing Ileana to live in such a precarious state.  Remember how anxious QV was about Alexandra marrying Nicholas? Everyone knew how dangerous Russia was.

I also think all Princesses coming from knowingly haemophiliac lines would have been ruled out.  They knew that haemophilia was contracted from the mother, and the idea of having more haemophilia tainting the royal line would have been abhorrent to both Nicholas and Alexandra.  So, there go most of the princesses directly descended from children of Queen Victoria.

I think Margarita and Theodora of Greece would have been the most likely contenders.  Attractive, no haemophilia in their branch of the family, related but not too close, English in upbringing and I presume, Greek Orthodox, so no need for conversion? Plus they were minor Greek princesses and had no role as such in Greece, so they would have made the transition across to Russia fairly easily.

Though, knowing Nicholas and Alexandra, I think they would have, as far as possible, let Alexei make his own choice.  They were so happy in their own marriage, so they wouldn't have wanted anything less for Alexei.  Whoever he wanted, as long as they were suitable lineage wise, I am sure they would have been delighted to accept.  However, seeing as we will never know what Alexei would have grown to be like as a man if he grew to be one at all, what his personality and interests would have been, etc, we can only make a limited guess based on who would have been suitable from a lineage point of view.  Saying Ileana would have been the best choice based on a childish infatuation is a bit of a tricky point to argue, seeing as a childish friendship is very different from an adult marriage.

Rachel
xx

[crazy_wing]

Indeed, Russia was an unstable place and it still is today.  However, Romania is not that much better either.  Romania's independence and well being were strongly depended on Russia.  Romanian officials would definitely push for it.  If they loved each other, it would've been unstoppable.  Not to mention, both Ileana's sisters married to heirs of unstable thrones too.  Marie didn't seem to have a problem with putting her daughters on unstable throne.  Also, Ileana later married the penniless Archduke Anton and Marie was not happy about it but the wedding continued anyway.  Equally, she was rather shocked Mignon decided to accept Alexander of Serbia's proposal only after knowing him for a short time.  Marie seemed to have left the decision making onto her children.  

[Ortino]

I would imagine it would have been unlikely that Alexei would have lived long enough to marry even if the revolution had not have happened.  He nearly died at Spala, and as he grew older it was harder and harder for Alexandra to stop him from injuring himself.  As sad as that may be, I doubt he would have lived to see 20 regardless.  Even so, I will join in the conjecture.

   I beg to differ here. As he grew older it would have been much easier for him to prevent injury since his judgment would be far better as well as his ability to avoid potentially dangerous situations. Most hemophiliacs back then did not live particularly long lives, but Leopold lived to be 31 so I believe that if he was careful he might haved lived to be in his 30's--plenty of time to produce an heir.

  

I also think all Princesses coming from knowingly haemophiliac lines would have been ruled out.  They knew that haemophilia was contracted from the mother, and the idea of having more haemophilia tainting the royal line would have been abhorrent to both Nicholas and Alexandra.  So, there go most of the princesses directly descended from children of Queen Victoria.

    Only two of Queen Victoria's five daughters were carriers--Alice and Beatrice. If people were not direct descendants of them, then hemophilia would not exist in that particular line. Therefore, most of Queen Victoria's descendants would, in fact, be left intact.

I doubt Missy would have wanted Ileana to marry Alexei and so I think she would have put a stop to any plans there.  She adored Ileana, and marrying her off into the most unstable monarchy in the world would hardly have been her idea of a good marriage. Ileana would have been under constant threat and revolution was always a possibility in Russia.  I can't see Missy willingly allowing Ileana to live in such a precarious state.  Remember how anxious QV was about Alexandra marrying Nicholas? Everyone knew how dangerous Russia was.

   Victoria was also anxious about Alix marrying Nicholas because she hated the Russians. I do agree though that Russia was not the most secure nation at this time, but the prestige, connections, and riches to be gained by marrying into such a family could not be overlooked. Romania was apparently not a particularly notable monarchy at the time and such a direct connection could be most beneficial. Also, Romania was not the best place to be either.

I think Margarita and Theodora of Greece would have been the most likely contenders.  Attractive, no haemophilia in their branch of the family, related but not too close, English in upbringing and I presume, Greek Orthodox, so no need for conversion? Plus they were minor Greek princesses and had no role as such in Greece, so they would have made the transition across to Russia fairly easily.

    Good points, but I don't think them having a minor role would actually do anything to their ability to transition. Alix was from a relatively minor and insignificant place and clearly had a terrible time. This is of course can be largely attributed to personality, but I don't see it having a big impact. You also neglect the suitability of personality and temperament. It would not be wise to have another shy, stubborn, and timid individual as consort to the Emperor. Why would they not have to convert? Is Greek Orthodox that close to Russian Orthodox that conversion would not be necessary? Both the Tsar and Tsarina were head of the Russian Orthodox Church so I can't imagine why they would be allowed to remain Greek Orthodox.  :-?

Though, knowing Nicholas and Alexandra, I think they would have, as far as possible, let Alexei make his own choice.  They were so happy in their own marriage, so they wouldn't have wanted anything less for Alexei.  Whoever he wanted, as long as they were suitable lineage wise, I am sure they would have been delighted to accept.  However, seeing as we will never know what Alexei would have grown to be like as a man if he grew to be one at all, what his personality and interests would have been, etc, we can only make a limited guess based on who would have been suitable from a lineage point of view.  Saying Ileana would have been the best choice based on a childish infatuation is a bit of a tricky point to argue, seeing as a childish friendship is very different from an adult marriage.

     I wasn't basing my assumption on "childish infatuation." Ileana was in my opinion most like her mother and possessed the qualities necessary to make a good tsarina. And as I mentioned, I'm sure they would liked him to choose, but had the monarchy survived past World War I, conditions might have been so bad that they may have had to decide for him. The difference between marrying a princess from a major dynasty and that of a minor one could be substantial.

[Prince_Christopher]

I have to agree with Ortino.

We tend to look at  these "what-if's" with twenty-first century ideals and attitudes.  And let's not forget that these are ALL just conjectures and really, a game.

Just because Alexei was inflicted with haemophilia, doesn't mean he wouldn't have grown up and fathered children, lots of men with haemophilia do manage to do it.  Leopold did, and Alexei's cousin, son of Irene and Henry, (Waldemar or Sigismund, I forget which one), lived to be fairly old with haemophilia, even though he did not father children.

As far as Missy goes, she had no problem, as has been stated, putting Elisabeth and Marie on unstable thrones, both with disastrous results.  A third daughter on a throne would have been a coup in Missy's life and world.  Missy did not have the common "horse" sense of her grandmother, either, concerning QV's hesitation at her granddaughters marrying Russians.  Missy may also have looked at this possible marriage as very advantageous for the future of her family:  IF the Yugoslav throne had survived and had a strong ruler instead of a boy king, and Elisabeth had borne heirs to the Greek throne, and Ileana was married to a powerful Russian tsar, they would have been able to hold Carol II at bay and keep him in check. Maybe.

Also, I believe that Alexei would not have been forced to marry anyone he didn't love and respect.  As coddled as he was, HE probably would have had the last word.

Although we will never know for sure, I feel that with the evidence and information we have today, Ileana would have been the likely choice, followed closely by Margarita or Theodora.

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

I beg to differ here. As he grew older it would have been much easier for him to prevent injury since his judgment would be far better as well as his ability to avoid potentially dangerous situations. Most hemophiliacs back then did not live particularly long lives, but Leopold lived to be 31 so I believe that if he was careful he might haved lived to be in his 30's--plenty of time to produce an heir.

You forget the fact that Alexei had a very severe type of haemophilia, much more ferocious than Leopold's or other haemophiliacs in the royal family. He suffered serious attacks with frightening regularity and was very, very weak by the time the family were in Ekaterinburg. I don't think he would have survived much longer, seeing as a simple bang (which I know I do all the time, and I am old enough to know what I'm doing) could trigger a severe bleed. He wasn't strong enough to keep fighting the attacks.  

Only two of Queen Victoria's five daughters were carriers--Alice and Beatrice. If people were not direct descendants of them, then hemophilia would not exist in that particular line. Therefore, most of Queen Victoria's descendants would, in fact, be left intact.

Just because haemophilia wasn't visible, it doesn't mean it wasn't there. There is only a 50/50 chance that a carrier can have visibly haemophiliac children. A lucky carrier could get away with not having any children with the disease. So I think saying 'it doesn't exist in that particular line' is a little premature, seeing as it would have been virtually impossible to know if the carrier gene had been passed on. We know now that it did become extinct in the other lines, but they didn't know that at the time and I doubt the risk would want to be taken. A haemophiliac and a carrier would produce disastrous effects.

Victoria was also anxious about Alix marrying Nicholas because she hated the Russians. I do agree though that Russia was not the most secure nation at this time, but the prestige, connections, and riches to be gained by marrying into such a family could not be overlooked. Romania was apparently not a particularly notable monarchy at the time and such a direct connection could be most beneficial. Also, Romania was not the best place to be either.

I wasn't aware it was prestigious to be married to a weak and dying man who probably would never make it to take up his father's throne. Nor was I aware that it was prestigious to have your life in constant danger. By 1914 Russia was no longer the powerful, glittering, prestigious empire it once was.  It was crumbling and the people did not support the monarchy. The revolution would only have been prevented by setting up a constitutional monarchy, so if we're talking about Russia after WW1, the monarchy would be no more prestigious, and yet more dangerous than anywhere else. I don't think Marie would be as keen as you seem to think about pushing Ileana towards Russia. If both Alexei and Ileana loved each other, then I don't think she'd put up any serious objections, but I can't honestly see her actively scheming a match.

Why would they not have to convert? Is Greek Orthodox that close to Russian Orthodox that conversion would not be necessary? Both the Tsar and Tsarina were head of the Russian Orthodox Church so I can't imagine why they would be allowed to remain Greek Orthodox.

I meant them having a limited role would mean they would have no difficulties in leaving Greece.  Ability to transition does depend on personality; I didn't mean transition in that sense.  And the Russian and Greek Orthodox churches are based on essentially the same doctrines. A conversion would be necessary, of course, but it would not be a conversion in the same way as from another Christian church would be, as they are almost exactly the same church.  They are derived from each other.  

I wasn't basing my assumption on "childish infatuation." Ileana was in my opinion most like her mother and possessed the qualities necessary to make a good tsarina. And as I mentioned, I'm sure they would liked him to choose, but had the monarchy survived past World War I, conditions might have been so bad that they may have had to decide for him. The difference between marrying a princess from a major dynasty and that of a minor one could be substantial.

Oh, I'm sorry, I must have missed your reasons for deciding on Ileana.  She may very well have had the qualities to be a good Tsarina, but I don't know enough about her to agree or disagree with that statement.  I think that definitely after WW1 all hereditary German Princesses would have to be avoided, and perhaps Nicholas and Alexandra would have encouraged Alexei to look in certain directions, but I don't think they would ever have actively chosen a wife for him.  They were so in love themselves and I think that they wouldn't have wanted anything less for their own children.  Remember, that IF the monarchy had survived after WW1, it would be a monarchy much reduced in power, as all monarchies were across the world.  Making a dynastic marriage would no longer be of real importance in the way it was before, as there were no longer dynasties or autocratic monarchies, and monarchical powers were being eroded all the time.  Perhaps Alexei would have been the first Tsarevich to marry a Russian, even? We'll never know.

Rachel
xx

[Ortino]

You forget the fact that Alexei had a very severe type of haemophilia, much more ferocious than Leopold's or other haemophiliacs in the royal family. He suffered serious attacks with frightening regularity and was very, very weak by the time the family were in Ekaterinburg. I don't think he would have survived much longer, seeing as a simple bang (which I know I do all the time, and I am old enough to know what I'm doing) could trigger a severe bleed. He wasn't strong enough to keep fighting the attacks.

 

   Now there are degrees of severity for hemophilia? I wasn't aware that hemophilia could be be measured on a scale. Hemophilia is hemophilia, however you look at it. And if Alexei was so very, very weak at Ekaterinburg and couldn't walk, I find it hard to believe that he could manage to hurt himself while lying in bed.

Just because haemophilia wasn't visible, it doesn't mean it wasn't there. There is only a 50/50 chance that a carrier can have visibly haemophiliac children. A lucky carrier could get away with not having any children with the disease. So I think saying 'it doesn't exist in that particular line' is a little premature, seeing as it would have been virtually impossible to know if the carrier gene had been passed on. We know now that it did become extinct in the other lines, but they didn't know that at the time and I doubt the risk would want to be taken. A haemophiliac and a carrier would produce disastrous effects.

   Hemophilia makes itself known, it doesn't hide out and come back five generations later. By the early 1900's, Queen Victoria's grandchildren were all having children, so it makes little sense to assume that they wouldn't have been aware as to where it could spread. It pretty much makes a pattern in certain lines and never shows up in others, so I can't imagine how they could be so ignorant as to not notice it. Although your "lucky carrier" theory is nice, historically speaking, it never happened. Everyone who was a hemophilia carrier had children with hemophilia.

I wasn't aware it was prestigious to be married to a weak and dying man who probably would never make it to take up his father's throne. Nor was I aware that it was prestigious to have your life in constant danger. By 1914 Russia was no longer the powerful, glittering, prestigious empire it once was.  It was crumbling and the people did not support the monarchy. The revolution would only have been prevented by setting up a constitutional monarchy, so if we're talking about Russia after WW1, the monarchy would be no more prestigious, and yet more dangerous than anywhere else. I don't think Marie would be as keen as you seem to think about pushing Ileana towards Russia. If both Alexei and Ileana loved each other, then I don't think she'd put up any serious objections, but I can't honestly see her actively scheming a match.

Alexei wasn't dying at any time after Spala. Weak for sure, but not on his deathbed. Let's not exaggerate here. We don't know how informed the Romanians were of Alexei's condition (Alix and Missy were not that friendly), so as you said, let's not be premature here either. You're missing the point about women anyway. It doesn't really matter what kind of condition Alexei was in--so long as they could produce an heir, if he ever died there wouldn't be successional issues. Even if he died, she would be looked after by his family. However you look at it, it would still be beneficial to her. And obviously the Romanians thought Russia prestigious enough to try and arrange a marriage between Olga and Carol. Besides, Russian artistocrats declared the 1914 season to be the best ever. Yes, after the Revolution things would not have been so wonderful, but they wouldn't have known that by 1914.

[Ra-Ra-Rasputin]

  Now there are degrees of severity for hemophilia? I wasn't aware that hemophilia could be be measured on a scale. Hemophilia is hemophilia, however you look at it. And if Alexei was so very, very weak at Ekaterinburg and couldn't walk, I find it hard to believe that he could manage to hurt himself while lying in bed.

Actually, yes, there are degrees of severity of haemophilia.  There are numbered types, going on a scale of how severe bleeding episodes are.  So haemophilia affects sufferers in different ways.  Alexei appears to have had the most severe type, and Leopold a much less severe one.  If you go to the thread 'Did Alexei really have haemophilia' which I started, Helen_A has posted an informative article about haemophilia which you may find interesting.

Yes, I see your point that Alexei couldn't really hurt himself while in bed.  However, my point was that for Alexei, simply doing something silly like stubbing his toe could trigger a severe episode.  As his attacks became more frequent and severe as he grew older, the recovery time became smaller and smaller between attacks, leaving him with relatively few times when he was strong and healthy.  He seems to have become weaker and more sickly as he grew older.

Hemophilia makes itself known, it doesn't hide out and come back five generations later. By the early 1900's, Queen Victoria's grandchildren were all having children, so it makes little sense to assume that they wouldn't have been aware as to where it could spread. It pretty much makes a pattern in certain lines and never shows up in others, so I can't imagine how they could be so ignorant as to not notice it. Although your "lucky carrier" theory is nice, historically speaking, it never happened. Everyone who was a hemophilia carrier had children with hemophilia.

I never claimed it could 'hide out'.  All I was pointing out is that at the time so little was known about haemophilia that it would have been impossible for anyone to say categorically 'there is not haemophilia in that family'.  My "lucky carrier" theory is not a theory, because it could quite easily happen.  It didn't, but it could have done, and no-one would have known about it until another haemophiliac showed up in the next generation.  Remember, Queen Victoria's haemophilia appeared out of nowhere.

Alexei wasn't dying at any time after Spala. Weak for sure, but not on his deathbed. Let's not exaggerate here.

Alexei was dying.  He had a terminal illness. At the time, haemophilia was incurable and would undoubtedly lead to an early death, especially seeing as Alexei had a particularly severe type. Maybe I was exaggerating slightly, but Alexei was not realistically going to survive for long.

We don't know how informed the Romanians were of Alexei's condition (Alix and Missy were not that friendly), so as you said, let's not be premature here either.

That's fair enough.  It's unlikely Missy would have known about Alexei's true condition.

You're missing the point about women anyway. It doesn't really matter what kind of condition Alexei was in--so long as they could produce an heir, if he ever died there wouldn't be successional issues. Even if he died, she would be looked after by his family. However you look at it, it would still be beneficial to her.

You think a woman just wants to marry to have a baby and then be widowed, if she gets a few tiaras and a nice title at the end of it!? That's a bit harsh!

I think that because the monarchy would have been constitutional if it had survived, Alexei would have married a Russian woman from a good, aristocratic family, or maybe a Romanov second cousin, like Nina and Xenia Georgievna.  Nothing would have made the people happier than that. And remember, the girls always said they were Russians and would marry Russians; I would imagine Alexei would have had the same mentality.  The Imperial marriage laws would have had to have been laxed after the war anyway because so many monarchies were wiped out during that time.

This is an interesting conversation and it's great to hear different people's views on events.  It's funny how differently we see this, Ortino!

Rachel
xx

[Prince_Christopher]

I'm inclined to believe that Alexei would not have lived long, even though anything is possible.  He was being carried EVERYWHERE it seems in the last few months, his father even carried him to that cellar....

IF Alexei had survived 10 more years, it would have been a miracle.  He could possibly have survived long enough to father a child or two, thus securing the succession, leaving his wife a rich dowager, widowed before her time, but financially set and content in the knowledge she had done her duty in bearing an heir to continue the dynasty, and having really no other obligations than to raise her children well.  I think ANY princess would have been more than willing to marry Alexei, haemophilia and unstable throne included.

[Ortino]

I never claimed it could 'hide out'.  All I was pointing out is that at the time so little was known about haemophilia that it would have been impossible for anyone to say categorically 'there is not haemophilia in that family'.  My "lucky carrier" theory is not a theory, because it could quite easily happen.  It didn't, but it could have done, and no-one would have known about it until another haemophiliac showed up in the next generation.  Remember, Queen Victoria's haemophilia appeared out of nowhere.

  Queen Victoria's hemophilia didn't necessarily appear out of nowhere. It was either a genetic mutation or inherited from one of her parents. It has been suggested that Victoria's father was not the Duke of Kent, but someone else, which would explain its sudden appearance in the British royal family.    

Alexei was dying.  He had a terminal illness. At the time, haemophilia was incurable and would undoubtedly lead to an early death, especially seeing as Alexei had a particularly severe type. Maybe I was exaggerating slightly, but Alexei was not realistically going to survive for long.

   Hemophilia is still not curable. I still believe that Alexei wouldn't have died right away. He probably would be crippled, but I think he still had some time to live. I'll shorten my estimate to his twenties.

You think a woman just wants to marry to have a baby and then be widowed, if she gets a few tiaras and a nice title at the end of it!? That's a bit harsh!

  You forget that there may have been larger forces working behind the scenes, like her father, whoever he might be. Not all royals were like Alexandra and Nicholas--some used their daughters as diplomatic tools to build connections and wealth. His bride may not have been willing to trade being a widow for a title and tiaras, but her family might have. As we've also established, most of the world was unaware of Alexei's true condition, so his bride may have not known she was marrying a "dying man." Unless she was Russian, it is unlikely that the pair would see each other frequently enough during their engagement for the signs of this debilitating illness to always show anyway.

I think that because the monarchy would have been constitutional if it had survived, Alexei would have married a Russian woman from a good, aristocratic family, or maybe a Romanov second cousin, like Nina and Xenia Georgievna.  Nothing would have made the people happier than that. And remember, the girls always said they were Russians and would marry Russians; I would imagine Alexei would have had the same mentality.  The Imperial marriage laws would have had to have been laxed after the war anyway because so many monarchies were wiped out during that time.

    This may be true, but I feel that they would have upheld the marriage laws for an heir if the monarchy was still in place. Perhaps for the girls it would be different, but I feel that allowing Alexei to marry an aristocrat would make the monarchy lose its elevated position. :-/

[RissiaSunbeam1918]

I adore the new fourm...but on my old computer, it's loading slower than anything...I have just finally had the time to sit and watch it load.

The 'what if's are fun, but do you know if any of these girls fancied Alexei? I'd never really thought about it much, and now when I look back on it, I don't recall reading anything on the topic.

[Grace]

I don't think Alexei or the girls mentioned as possible future brides would be fancying each other.  They were all, including Alexei, just young kids.

I think the topic is more to discuss who may have been an appropriate wife for Alexei in the future from a royal point of view, had the revolution not occurred, rather than about any possible love match. Hopefully, that would have come later!  

[Teddy]

heehee. Alexei getting married is so adorable. WHen ever i hear about him getting married i always picture 5 year old Alexei waiting while some 23 year old walked down the isle. But wat do i know? I'm WIERD!  

Maybe its sweet, if you think about Alexei getting married.
But I think in the first place that if Alexei would have married in those circumstances that no, European Princess would have wanted to marry Alexei, to become is wife and Tsarina of all Russia. Because of the uncertain future.

And if Alexei would had become Tsar after his father abdicated, it would have meanth that he was totally alone. His family would be murdered or send abroad, with no return at all to Russia. Not even to see Alexei getting married.

[Romanov_fan]

I  think that Alexei would have lived long enough to father a child, and marry. Prince Leopold did, it must be remembered. Alexei could have died at any time, that's true, and that is particularly true of any hemophiliac in general. I have never heard of hemphilia having varying degrees of things- where did you read that? Of course it is possible he woudn't lived long enough to marry and have heirs. I don't see him living beyond his thirties, but that's time enough.  Just my opinion.

He would have under a lot of pressure to marry and have heirs-anything would have been done to ensure he did. As for who he might have married, it would defintely have been someone of the correct blood, whatever role Alexei would have played in this. I don't see him marrying anyone exacept a Princess.  World War I might have changed things, but Russia would most likely have stayed traditional in this. I think Ileana would have been a choice and might have become the choice, not that that rules out others. But there is nothing that rules out her as a choice, a likely one in fact. There were some other royals, so we don't know who would have maried him, and there are many other unknowns. It's just a statement based on the facts available to us, not speculation. I think most Princesses would still have been happy to marry Alexei, and become part of the Russian monarchy, and most likely mother to an heir.

[LisaDavidson]

Just a couple of points regarding Alexei and getting married:

1. Nicholas abdicated on behalf of Alexei after conferring with a doctor, who reportedly told him that Alexei did not have much hope of surviving for any great amount of time. This supports the contention of some posters here regarding the severity of his hemophilia.

2. Regarding who he could have married, in 1912, Nicholas strengthened the House Laws which mandated that all grand dukes, of which Alexei was the youngest, marry equally. It is not realistic to assume that Alexei could have married a Russian or unequally, with or without the survival of the monarchy. A conservative such as Nicholas would not have permitted the laws to become "lax" no matter what the circumstances.