Author Topic: Alexei's wife?  (Read 65322 times)

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Offline Belochka

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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #90 on: November 28, 2009, 06:54:46 PM »
Nikolai Mikhailovich, who was apparently present at the time of Mikhail's renunciation, ...

Janet I do not believe that Nikolai Mikhailovich was at Prince Putyatin’s apartment at that time.  Given the circumstances, his presence would not have been appropriate.

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Offline Belochka

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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #91 on: November 28, 2009, 07:17:26 PM »
If you are referring to Michael then yes - though its important to state that he did not renounce the throne. After very long discussions with the representives of the provisional committee he declined to accept the throne

What most are forgetting here is that Nikolai Johnson, Mikhail Alexandrovich’s private secretary revealed that the Grand Duke had initially accepted his role and was thinking about an appropriate response to the Duma delegation which he was expecting to receive.

Unbeknown to Mikhail Alexandrovich, Rodzianko had already announced to the Duma that “Mikhail Alexandrovich’s accession was not possible.” According to Kerensky no one demurred,  and that in his opinion everyone “instinctively realized – at this stage of the revolution a new tsar was unacceptable.”

Shulgin declared: “If the … emperor had to abdicate, Mikhail could renounce the throne.”

The Committee that comprised Rodzianko, Milyukov, Guchkov and Kerensky formed the influential group of Provisional Committee representatives who had the duty to persuade Mikhail Alexandrovich to reconsider his position.

Mikhail Alexandrovich did in fact renounce (vacate, refuse) the throne. The question one can argue about today is whether his decision was made "voluntarily" or under coercion.

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« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 07:19:23 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #92 on: November 29, 2009, 05:07:12 AM »
Nikolai Mikhailovich, who was apparently present at the time of Mikhail's renunciation, ...

Janet I do not believe that Nikolai Mikhailovich was at Prince Putyatin’s apartment at that time.  Given the circumstances, his presence would not have been appropriate.

Margarita


I could have put what I wrote a little more carefully - no, he was not actually present during the session with the Duma et al.; but (alone of all the fmaily, I believe) he was in and out of the apartment constantly during the days that Mikhail lived in it, and saw him the same morning and again after the session at which M declined to take the throne. Obviously the younger Grand Duke's demeanour during that time affected the way his cousin saw him, because Nikolai had previously been rather avuncular and encouraging towards him, trying to bring about a reconciliation with Maria Feodorovna, for example, after M's marriage. By 1917, though, he clearly regarded Natalia as an object of contempt as well, going on about her previous husbands; "let alone how many lovers she's had!"
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Offline mcdnab

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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #93 on: December 02, 2009, 10:46:28 AM »
Thanks Lisa for the correction about Kerensky ( a self apologist if ever there was one).

On the other comments about Michael Alexandrovitch.

Olga Paley - had an axe to grind. As a divorced wife of a Grand Duke, Michael's wife was an obvious threat to her. On Grand Duke Paul's return to Russia she's worked very hard to ingratiate herself with the Empress with some small success (despite Alexandra's view that if Olga got the title - Princess Paley - then Michael's wife would want one too). It was in her interests to denigrate Michael and his wife.
She found Natalia a threat in a similar way to the Countess Torby (another morganatic wife) who hindered Natalia and Michael's access to London Society prior to the war.

Olga Alexandrovna's views are hindered a little because of Michael's reaction to her treatment of him after his marriage and exile. Olga in a bizarre marital situation herself perhaps should have expressed a bit more sympathy for his position. She certainly had met and knew Natalia well as evidenced by the numerous photographs of them prior to the marriage. Her general point about the behaviour of the imperial family is interesting but Michael was generally disregarded by his brother long before his romantic endeavours.

The reasons for this are harder to pin down, Nicholas clearly continued to see him as much younger brother and therefore someone whose ivews and opinions were not of importance. I also suspect that Michael's position in the family had much to do with his relationship with his brother in particular - he had been more indulged by both his parents and was generally regarded whether truthfully or not as their favourite. Add the fact that he had more of a "Romanov" look than his two surviving elder siblings (Xenia and Nicholas) both of whom strongly resembled their mother's family and it would be a surprise if Nicholas didn't keep him at arms length. I also don't believe Nicholas ever could have forgiven him truly for the ill advised letter he wrote justifying his marriage and his decision to break his word to Nicky.

I certainly don't believe that he was some kind of genius but his personal bravery (during his wartime service), reported comments by him that give an indication of his relative intelligence and understanding of the situation in Russia suggset that some of the comments by some of his relations aren't really borne out. As to his wife she was certainly a lady with a "past" but she was no where near as bad as some people have painted. I sometimes find that the family describe her in similar terms to the way some members of the British Royal Family described Wallis Simpson - not so much the lady's past but the way in which she behaved towards Edward VIII being the really issue for them.
Nicholas Michaelovitch hardly had a good word to say about any of his cousins and his poor relationship with Nicholas II had led to his internal exile - in fact I think apart from his own brothers none of the family got on with him.




Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #94 on: December 07, 2009, 05:09:34 PM »

Nicholas Michaelovitch hardly had a good word to say about any of his cousins and his poor relationship with Nicholas II had led to his internal exile - in fact I think apart from his own brothers none of the family got on with him.





He didn't get on unfailingly well with his brothers, even. There was a souring of his relationship with Sergei after the revolution when Nikolai suggested that S might throw Kschessinska to the wolves; and several of the Mikhailovichi were quite scathing of their brother George and complained about his boring conversation.
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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #95 on: August 06, 2011, 02:05:31 PM »
QUOTE from "The Royal Marriage Market of Europe" by Catherine Radziwill, first published in 1915

The daughters of the Emperor Nicholas are perhaps the greatest matches in Europe at the present moment, if one takes into consideration the immense fortunes which they will bring to their husbands, in addition to their position, personal charm, and prestige.

But in the Royal marriage market they count but little in comparison with their brother, the little Grand Duke Alexis, about whose future wife people are talking already, notwithstanding the fact that he is but eleven years old and in very delicate health. Upon him rest the hopes of Holy Russia, and for him she prays every day in her numerous churches and shrines. He is a precocious, most intelligent child, the idolised son of fond parents, who for ten years waited in vain for the birth of a longed-for heir. Handsome, bright, clever, and wilful, he is, because of his physical weakness, the object of the most tender solicitude on the part of his father and mother, and it is probable that the Empress Alexandra is already wondering who will be lucky enough to win him for a husband when the time comes for him to look about for a bride. That he will marry young is certain, because, being an only son, it is most essential that the succession to the Throne should be assured in the direct line. It is but natural, therefore, that even so early this important question should be discussed both in private and in official circles. Russia would decidedly object to a German princess, even if it were likely the Romanoffs would turn their thoughts that way. A Spanish Infanta is out of the question. There remains, therefore, few others. The little Princess Ingrid, the daughter of the Crown Prince and Princess of Sweden, is one. She is about five years old at present. Or maybe one of her cousins, the daughters of Prince Charles and of Princess Ingeborg, may be chosen. It must be remembered that the Princess Ingeborg belongs to the reigning house of Denmark, and that Court has still much to say in Russian Court circles, and will have so long as the Dowager Empress lives. Perhaps the eyes of Nicholas II. may turn toward one of the little Greek princesses, of whom there are plenty, and who, through their Russian relationship, offer considerable advantages. There are nine of them, two daughters of the King, and their cousins, the children of Prince Nicolas and of Prince Andrew, all of whom promise to inherit the good looks of their respective mothers.


Offline James_Davidov

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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #96 on: December 28, 2012, 10:13:30 PM »
It is interesting that no one has suggested the potential that Alexei (if he had hypothetically survived) would not have married equally, or perhaps at all.

there were so many factors that complicated any potential matches (in the event that he was to survive). 
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Offline Olga Maria

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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #97 on: October 31, 2013, 03:56:29 AM »
Don't know where to post about crushes...


I was reading Alexandra & Nicholas Wartime Correspondence and saw this:
Aug. 29, 1915
"It was lovely in church, only two hours, masses went to Holy Communion, every sort of person, lots of soldiers, 3 cossacks, Zizi, Isa, Ania, Mme. Dediulin & sister, Baby's friend Irina..."

That caught my attention. Alix calls Demenkov 'Marie's friend' and we know he is Marie's crush. Seeing this, I assume this Irina is Alexei's crush, too.

Then I saw this:
August 24, 1915
"Baby enjoyed himself very much in the 'little house' with Irina Tolstoy and Riita Hitrovo, they played games together."

So Alexei's friend might be Irina Tolstoy? Does anybody know who she is?



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Maria_Pavlovna

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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #98 on: October 31, 2013, 10:37:53 AM »
That’s really sweet about Irina Tolstoy! I really don’t think he was interested in girls yet, he like his sisters where quite immature and if Irina Tolstoy was a girlfriend of Alexei Nikolayevich it was possibly very innocent and more of a friendzone today lol.  Other than that nice to read that not all his friends were just boys or his sisters and female cousins.

 I’m not really sure about it Irina being his “girlfriend” as I myself has a few best friends that are male - doesn’t mean one of them are my boyfriend.

As for Irina Tolstoy a relative of Leo Tolstoy and possibly a relative of Anna Vyrubova (Anna’s mother was a Tolstoy). I can’t find much info on her.

Offline Превед

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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #99 on: October 31, 2013, 11:56:04 AM »
So Alexei's friend might be Irina Tolstoy? Does anybody know who she is?

Sorry to shatter your romantic illusions, but most likely we are talking about a relationship to "an older woman", 23 year old Countess Irina Mikhailovna Tolstoya née Rayevskaya (Tsarskoye Selo, 18 August 1892 - Sigmaringen, 22 January 1955). She was a фрейлина and her family among the heirs of Potemkin's fortune. After her first husband Count Tolstoy died or more likely was killed in 1918, she married Duke Georg Alexander of Mecklenburg, former Count of Carlow. Through her first marriage she is the grandmother of Princess Sophie of Isenburg, the current Princess Georg-Friedrich of Prussia.

Anna Vyrubova, whose mother belonged to a junior, untitled branch of the Tolstoys, was only distantly related to these comital Tolstoys.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 12:09:50 PM by Превед »
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Maria_Pavlovna

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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #100 on: October 31, 2013, 05:16:19 PM »
lol honest thought she was a child of 7 to 10 but that pretty much clears it up, thanks Превед!  I guess to the Empress anyone born after her are always "little" in her eyes.

Offline Olga Maria

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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #101 on: November 01, 2013, 01:49:48 AM »
LOL, I didn't mean that the Irina who Alix calls as 'Baby's friend' was really Irina Tolstoy. Irina T. was still a suggestion ^^ I apologize for not clarifying my part.
 
I also don't think that Irina was a girlfriend. It's a crush -  simple admiration from afar, like how Marie adored Demenkov. Or like this by Mandie:

Quote
I’m not really sure about it Irina being his “girlfriend” as I myself has a few best friends that are male - doesn’t mean one of them are my boyfriend.
IMO, Alix referring to Marie & Alexei's crushes as "friends" is a proof she was amused of her younger children having crushes ~

Thank you very much for the info about Irina Tolstoy, Pryevyed!  If she was the Irina who Alix calls 'Baby's friend', then it's safe to assume Alexei had a crush on an older lady than he was, like his sister Marie (at 1915, Demenkov was 30 yrs. old).

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Maria_Pavlovna

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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #102 on: November 02, 2013, 12:47:38 PM »
LOL, I didn't mean that the Irina who Alix calls as 'Baby's friend' was really Irina Tolstoy. Irina T. was still a suggestion ^^ I apologize for not clarifying my part.
 
I also don't think that Irina was a girlfriend. It's a crush -  simple admiration from afar, like how Marie adored Demenkov. Or like this by Mandie:

Quote
I’m not really sure about it Irina being his “girlfriend” as I myself has a few best friends that are male - doesn’t mean one of them are my boyfriend.
IMO, Alix referring to Marie & Alexei's crushes as "friends" is a proof she was amused of her younger children having crushes ~

Thank you very much for the info about Irina Tolstoy, Pryevyed!  If she was the Irina who Alix calls 'Baby's friend', then it's safe to assume Alexei had a crush on an older lady than he was, like his sister Marie (at 1915, Demenkov was 30 yrs. old).


your possibly right and I agree since I never heard of Irina Tolstoy. :) good work of clearing that up.

Maria_Pavlovna

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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #103 on: November 02, 2013, 12:56:52 PM »
also here you can find two photos of Irina Tolstoy, one with her 1st husband Count Tolstoy and another in her youth (1911). a pretty Russian lady. :)

and here her family tree. Her second husband was Count Georg Carlow, Duke of Mecklenburg. A distant cousin of Alexei Nikolayevich. Georg’s grandmother was Grand Duchess Catherine Mikhailovna of Russia, a granddaughter of Tsar Paul.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 01:01:28 PM by Mandie, the Gothic Empress »

Offline Olga Maria

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Re: Alexei's wife?
« Reply #104 on: November 06, 2013, 05:14:49 AM »
also here you can find two photos of Irina Tolstoy, one with her 1st husband Count Tolstoy and another in her youth (1911). a pretty Russian lady. :)

and here her family tree. Her second husband was Count Georg Carlow, Duke of Mecklenburg. A distant cousin of Alexei Nikolayevich. Georg’s grandmother was Grand Duchess Catherine Mikhailovna of Russia, a granddaughter of Tsar Paul.


Thanks for that additional info and pics, Mandie! I agree: very beautiful!
If Irina Tolstoy really was Baby's friend, then I must say Alexei has a really good eye on girls. Like how he once 'loved' Pcss. Elisabeth of Greece (later Countess Toerring-Jettenbach) ^^

(repost from Alexei's anecdotes, trans. by me)

At the 20th day of April, the Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna married the Prince William of Sweden. Many dignitaries came to St. Petersburg for this event, including the Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna, a cousin of the Emperor. She brought her two daughters – Olga and Elisabeth – along with her. At tea time, 3 year old Elisabeth sat next to the Heir. He kept his eyes on her, and then he told her something which she did not understand as she spoke only Greek and English. He shouted in her ear thinking that she would understand it better – “Elisabeth, I love you”, in Russian. She didn’t say anything. Then I (Sofia Tyutcheva) translated it into English. The girl smiled sweetly and said, “I also love little Alexis”.

Amazing colored fotos  by the most wonderful Yelena Aleksandrovna. Endless thank you very much!