Author Topic: Governess to Vladimir Pavlovich Palei  (Read 7359 times)

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slgriffiths

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Governess to Vladimir Pavlovich Palei
« on: February 16, 2005, 06:20:36 AM »
Hiya everyone, I was wondering if any of you Romanov geniuses could help me out with a little family history poser that has been bugging me for several years.

I have some letters that indicate that an ancestor of mine, Emma Datlen (born Dover, England 1843) was Governess-tutor to Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovitch's children.

The letters state that Emma went to Paris and was employed there and that she would often travel to Russia aboard the Trans-Siberian Railway. She was apparently with the family at the time of the revolution as the letters say "She was lucky to get out, maybe made her way up through Finland."

I know that GD Paul and his family were living at Boulogne-sur-Seine, Paris so the circumstancial evidence supports the claim.

I am currently reading "Memories of Russia 1916-1919" by Princess Paley. I have had a sneaky flick through the pages and discovered that the daughters Irina and Natalia had a Governess called "Miss White" but I am unable to find any mention to Vladimir's Governess.

I wrote to Ivor Paul Gilbert, President of the Imperial Russian Historical Society, to see if he could offer any assistance but he replied that he could not find any reference to Emma in any of the books on the Grand Duke.


I have some questions:

1) Does anyone know who was Vladimir's Governess or how can I find out.

2) Would Vladimir have been in need of a Governess when the family moved to Tsarskoe-Selo?  I think he would have been about 21 and in the military.

3) Did Irina and Natalia have another Governess at any time other than Miss White?

4) I have thought of asking a Paris based researcher to look in the 1900 census but does anyone know the exact address?

If anybody can answer any of the questions above or offer any advice or comments then I would be very grateful.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by slgriffiths »

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Governess to Vladimir Alexandrovitch
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2005, 01:24:01 AM »
Quote
Hiya everyone, I was wondering if any of you Romanov geniuses could help me out with a little family history poser that has been bugging me for several years.

I have some letters that indicate that an ancestor of mine, Emma Datlen (born Dover, England 1843) was Governess-tutor to Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovitch's children.

The letters state that Emma went to Paris and was employed there and that she would often travel to Russia aboard the Trans-Siberian Railway. She was apparently with the family at the time of the revolution as the letters say "She was lucky to get out, maybe made her way up through Finland."

I know that GD Paul and his family were living at Boulogne-sur-Seine, Paris so the circumstancial evidence supports the claim.

I am currently reading "Memories of Russia 1916-1919" by Princess Paley. I have had a sneaky flick through the pages and discovered that the daughters Irina and Natalia had a Governess called "Miss White" but I am unable to find any mention to Vladimir's Governess.

I wrote to Ivor Paul Gilbert, President of the Imperial Russian Historical Society, to see if he could offer any assistance but he replied that he could not find any reference to Emma in any of the books on the Grand Duke.


I have some questions:

1) Does anyone know who was Vladimir's Governess or how can I find out.

2) Would Vladimir have been in need of a Governess when the family moved to Tsarskoe-Selo?  I think he would have been about 21 and in the military.

3) Did Irina and Natalia have another Governess at any time other than Miss White?

4) I have thought of asking a Paris based researcher to look in the 1900 census but does anyone know the exact address?

If anybody can answer any of the questions above or offer any advice or comments then I would be very grateful.



It's usually challenging tracking these stories down. My first thought is that it would make no sense for a woman born in 1843 to be governess to Vladimir Alexandrovich, who was born in 1847. It would also make little sense for a woman born in 1843 to be governess to the Paley girls, who were born in 1903 and 1905. This woman would have been 60 years old when Irene Paley was born and in her mid 70's by the Revolution. She would have been too old to be their governess.

A woman born in 1843 could have been governess to Vladimir Alexandrovich's children, however. These children were born in the 1870's and 80's. And, she would have been the right age for them, at least.

Here are answers to your questions by numbers:

1. Males generally had governors rather than governesses. Prior to having a governor, they would have had a nurse or nanny. So, I think it unlikely that VA had a governess, but if he did, she would have had to have been born about 20 or more years before VA was, which was 1847 for VA.

2. Vladimir would not have needed a governess when he was 21.

3. Don't know, but one born in 1843 would have been considered too old for the Paley girls.

4. I don't, but I believe the street where PA and family lived is listed in a book somewhere.

slgriffiths

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Re: Governess to Vladimir Alexandrovitch
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2005, 02:25:03 AM »
Lisa,  Thank you for attempting to answer my questions. I would like to correct myself, that the Vladimir I refer to is the son of Grand Duke Paul born, I believe in 1897, that is Vladimir Pavlovich Paley, sorry!

AlexP

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Re: Governess to Vladimir Pavlovich Palei
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2005, 07:38:08 PM »
Our posters Hikaru and Belochka might be able to help you here.

There are listings in the All Peter "botins" prior to the Revolution of whom was what to whom, although this generally concerned ladies-in-waiting and above.

Hikarua, Belochka, since I do not have these archives in Shanghai, might you check to see if there are any listenings under the Paley entries.

Thank you.

hikaru

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Re: Governess to Vladimir Pavlovich Palei
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2005, 10:18:14 AM »
Pavel Alexandrovich was persona non grata.
He had no Court .  He had only Upravlenie Delami.
( GD P.A. Service Department)
They lived in Paris till 1914-1915.
So it is more simple to find out the Governess's address in the handbook "All Paris " but not "All Petersburg".

hikaru

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Re: Governess to Vladimir Pavlovich Palei
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2005, 10:36:24 AM »
According to the extracts of the Vladimir's diary they had
in 1917  some Jacqueline at home.
But of course, it is just some extracts from the Russian edition of Olyga Paley memoirs.

In some Vladimir's letters from Corps des Pages , he said
that "Babaka visited me with chocolate"

I think that Babaka is childish name for Babushka, Grand Mere or just old woman, close to family.
In your letters, slgriffiths, are there some references about  "Babaka?"

Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Governess to Vladimir Pavlovich Palei
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2012, 01:27:13 PM »
In some Vladimir's letters from Corps des Pages , he said
that "Babaka visited me with chocolate"

I think that Babaka is childish name for Babushka, Grand Mere or just old woman, close to family.
In your letters, slgriffiths, are there some references about  "Babaka?"

I only saw this just now, in 2012. She was Vladimir's half-sister.

Marianne Ericovna (“Babaka”), née Pistolkors — daughter of Princess O. V. Paley by her first marriage — wife of O. I. von Derfelden.
инок Николай

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Governess to Vladimir Pavlovich Palei
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2012, 03:43:20 AM »
Boys might begin their education with a governess, when aged around 5-7, but would later have tutors.

Gregory Tscherbatariov (born 1899) refers to learning French with a French governess.

Ann