The Gleichens

[ashdean]

You are welcome!

Old Prussian territorial law stated that marriages between noblemen and "female persons of the peasant or lower burgher estate" were unequal.

This must be the reason why Otto von Bismarck's non-noble mother, Luise Wilhelmine née Mencken, could be become the equal wife of a Von Bismarck: As daughter of Friedrich the Great's Privy Cabinet Secretary Anastasius Ludwig Mencken (himself the son of a professor - strange that he wasn't ennobled considering his career as royal aide) she was of the "higher burgher estate". BTW she and thus her son too were distant (?) relatives of the American democracy-critic H.L. Mencken.

Bismarks daughter in law Princess Margaret was of even more chequered background...her father was a minor Austro Hungarian nobleman Count George Hoyos who had improved his fortunes by marrying Alice Whitehead the daughter of a torpedo manufacturer from Bolton,Lancashire...despite her daughters marrying a Prince and 2 Counts....Alice was never received at the Austrian Imperial court!

[Marlene]

I am nearing completion on a long article on the Gleichens - Victor, as a member of the H-L family, was required, according to the house law, to marry someone of equal rank, from a reigning or ruling family - or a mediatized family.  Laura, whose father was a son of the Marquess of Hertford - and the Seymours were a very historic family - and both Laura and Augusta were descendants of Charles II, wrong side of the bed ... but the granddaughter of a marquess (and later with the rank of the daughter of a Marquess as laura's brother succeeded his uncle) and a duke were not considered of equal rank - because the peerage system was different from German ruling famiilies.   Lolo was much loved by her mother in-law -but Feo rarely got to see her English grandchildren (the war of 1870 didn't help) ... I sincerely doubt that the Gleichens were every really concerned about their status in Germany.  They were British citizens.  Very british ... and they were listed as members of the Royal Family - always at the bottom of the list.  Queen Victoria was fond of the family, gave them an apartment in St. James's Palace, which remained with Lady Helena until her death in 1947.  Victor chose to be styled as Count Gleichen rather than use his own title after the marriage, and eventually, Queen Victoria decreed that Victor and Lolo would be styled as HSH Prince and Princess Victor in Britain.   It is unlikely that there were a lot of connections to the family in Germany after the first world war.   

I know this thread has been dormant for a very long time, but can anyone throw any light on a query I have.

It is really about three marriages, but it does clearly link to that of Prince Victor of Hohenlohe - Langenburg. I would like to know why in Germany the marriages of the aforementioned Victor and Laura Seymour and that of Edward of Saxe Weimar and Lady Augusta Gordon Lennox were classed as morganatic, when the marriage of Hans Heinrich XV Prince of Pless to Daisy Conrwallis - West does not seem to have been regarded as such.

I have always been under the impression that Daisy was treated as a Princess with style and precedence in Germany and not as Hans Heinrich's morganatic wife. If this was the case, can anyone explain why Daisy was treated so favourably, when in fact her lineage and background was hardly comparable to that of either Laura or Augusta!

Perhaps I am missing the point on this as I am aware that de facto reigning houses maintained very strict rules about marriages of equals etc even long after 1918 as did mediatised houses such as the Hohenlohes, therefore perhaps the House of Pless was an exception to the rule and spouses of unequal birth were acceptable.  Perhaps their unique position was due to their vast wealth! I'd love to know what the Kaiser thought of the marriage and whether Daisy really was accepted as amongst equals! Was the princely title of Pless merely a peerage, if so that would make it more comprehensible as to why Daisy would have been allowed to style herself as such? If not, I think it terribly unfair that the Gleichens seem to have been penalized in Germany just because their mother happened to be the sister of a Marquess, and wonder how they must have felt about Daisy Pless' position and status as the daughter of an untitled gentleman.

[Marlene]

Margot, there was only one apartment in Engine Court that the family lived in.  Princess Victor lived there until her death.  The apartment was Feo and Helena's home.  Lord Edward had his own home on Catherine street, and Lady Valda stayed with her sisters from time to time ... However, as Lady Valda was married, she moved out of the apartment   She and Percy had their home on Seymour Street, but after his death, she had to sell the ancestral home, Crakenthorpe Hall.   Lady Helena allegedly still had tenancy of the apartment, but from 1931 she and Nina Hollings -- the assumption is that they were more than just good friends -- owned Hellens in Much Marcle.  The Tate stored its art there during war, but Lady Helena had to sell  Hellens right after the war.  She died at Ashmead. 

I am under the impression that Edward, Feodora, Helen and Valda all kept apartments at St James's Palace until their deaths but would love it if someone could just confirm this assumption for me!

[grandduchessella]

Thank you so much for the info, Marlene. What magazine is your article going to be published in and is there a pub date?

[Marlene]

It will be sent to Art for European History Journal because he can divide articles in parts .. I am also trying to find photos of the family

Thank you so much for the info, Marlene. What magazine is your article going to be published in and is there a pub date?

[Margot]

Oooo Marlene you absolute sugar coated plum sweetie pops!

Thank you so much for all that lovely information! I am so excited that you are doing an article about the Gleichens! I had a bit a rootle a while ago and discovered Hellens, which looks like a really dreamy English manor house. It is so pretty and the interiors are lovely and 'old world' simplicity itself!

[Marlene]

thanks

I am not quite convinced if Lady helena was able to retain the apartment after feo died.  She and Nina bought a place together in Wales, but eventually had to sell it and then bought Hellens. 

Oooo Marlene you absolute sugar coated plum sweetie pops!

Thank you so much for all that lovely information! I am so excited that you are doing an article about the Gleichens! I had a bit a rootle a while ago and discovered Hellens, which looks like a really dreamy English manor house. It is so pretty and the interiors are lovely and 'old world' simplicity itself!

[Marlene]

After years of saying this, I have finally finished my article on the Gleichens ....

and I hope it is all right to toot my own horn

http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/2012/03/gleichens-unknown-royal-cousins.html

[Robert_Hall]

Intersting, but does this not violate the rules of the forum ?  That is up to FA, of course. In any case, good luck. I am buying it anyway, Marlene.

[Marlene]

Thanks, Robert

I do not post here all that often, and I remember posting on the Gleichens some time ago, and stating I was working on an article.  If the FA thinks my original post violates something, that's okay, and he can remove it.