Author Topic: mediatized titles would have been.  (Read 8011 times)

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james_h

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mediatized titles would have been.
« on: March 16, 2006, 08:07:04 PM »
Feel free to make additions and amendments.

Pllease excuse the following it is only a draft, very rough and probably contains numerous errors.

Please note that I put the Georgian Dukes in as Princes because Russian "Light Princes" seemed to have reigned over little more than a single town, whereas the georgian duchies were significantly more than that. Some times incompassing 9 or more towns :)

Had the russian aristocracy been mediatized I figure that the following would have been.....

Light Princes:

Prince Tverskoy                                        =  Light  Prince of Dorogobuzh
Prince Kargolomsky                                 = Light Prince of Kargolomsky
Prince Kachine                                          = Light Prince of Kashin
Prince Kholmsky                                        = Light Prince of  Kholm
Prince Mikoulinsky                                    = Light Prince of Mikulin
Prince  Mikoulinsky- Teliatevsky             = Light Prince of Telyatev
Prince Pronsky                                          = Light Prince of Pronsk
Prince Chelespansky                               = Light Prince of Sheleshpansk
Prince Chouisky                                        = Light Prince of Shuya
Prince Sougorsky                                     = Light Prince of Sugorye
Prince Oukhtomsky                                  = Light Prince of Ukhtoma
Prince Vadbolsky                                         = Light Prince of Vadbol
Prince Dmitrovsky                                       = Light prince of Dmitrov
Prince Droutsky                                             = Light Prince of Drutsk
Prince Gorodensky                                           =  Light Prince of Grodno
Prince  Izyaslavsky                                         = Light prince of Izyaslav  
Prince Kletchsky                                              = Light Princes of Klechesk
Prince Minsky                                                =  Light Princes  of Minsk
Prince Svislotsky                                            = Light Prince of Svisloch        
Prince Volkovysky                                        =  Volkovysk
Prince Snovsky                                             = Light Prince of Snovsk
Prince Terebovlsky                                          = Light Prince of Terebovl
Prince Bagration-Muhkransky                           = Prince of Muhkrani





Princes:
Prince Starodoubsy                                  = Prince of Starodoub
Prince Zvenigorodsky                               = Prince of Zvenigorod
Prince Troubtchevsky                                 = Prince of  Trubchevsk
Prince Tchernigovsky                                 = Prince of  Bryansk
Prince Polotsky                                              = Prince of Polotsk
Prince Tourovsky                                            = Prince of Turov
Prince Vitebsky                                                = Prince of Vitebsk
Prince Ostrojsky                                                = Prince of Ostrog
Cherkassky                                                       = Prince of Circassia
Prince Meshcherskiy                                 = Prince of  Gorodets-Meshcherskiy
Prince Dadiani                                           = Duke of Dukes of Mingrelia/Samagrelo
Prince Dadeshkeliani                                        =  Duke of Svaneti
Prince Shirvashidze                                               = Duke of Abkhazia
Prince Gurieli                                                      = Duke of Guria & Adjara
Prince Sidamoni                                                         = Duke of  Aragvi
Prince Zedginidze                                                     = Duke of Samilakhoro
Prince Orbeliani                                                    =  Duke of Sabaratiano
Prince Tsitsishvili                                                    =  Duke of Satsitsiano
Prince Andronikashvili                                              = Duke of Sandroniko
Prince Abashidze                                                       = Duke of Sabashidzo
Prince Cholokashvili                                                  =  Duke of Sacholokao
Prince Tsereteli                                                         = Prince of Satseretlo











Grand Princes:
Prince Beloselsky-Belozersky      = Grand Prince of Beloozero
Prince Moscovsky                             = Grand Prince of Moscow
Prince Yourievsky                                 = Grand Prince of Yuryev
Prince Mouromsky                                  = Grand Prince of Murom
Prince Koursky                                             = Grand  Prince of Kursk
Prince Novgorodsky                                     = Grand Prince of Novgorod
Prince Chouisky                                            = Grand Prince of Pskov
Prince  Pereiaslavsky                              = Grand Prince of Pereyaslavl ( New Riazan )
Prince Riazansky                                     = Grand Prince of Old Riazan
Prince Rostovsky                                           = Grand Prince of Rostov
Prince Smolensk                                                = Grand Prince of Smolensk
Prince Suzdalsky                                             = Grand Prince of Suzdal
Prince Tverskoy                                                   = Grand Prince of Tver
Prince Vladimirsky                                                = Grand Prince of Vladimir
Prince Yaroslavsky                                                = Grand Prince of Yaroslavl
Prince Kievsky                                                    = Grand Prince of Kiev



Kings and Khans



                                            = King/Khan of Astrakhan
Prince Guriey                      = King/Khan of Crimea
Prince Kazansky                 = King/Khan of Kazan
Prince Sibirsky                    = King/Khan of Sibir


( I dont know which of the Mangyt lines would have ranked 1st in seniority?)

Prince Yusupov-Mangyt *       = Royal Nogai
Prince Urusov-Mangyt          = Royal Nogai
Prince Koutoumov-Mangyt    = Royal Nogai
Prince Chediakov-Mangyt     = Royal Nogai
Prince Beyterkov-Mangyt      = Royal Nogai

Prince  Bagration-Gruzinsky   = King of Georgia (Kartli/Kakheti)
Prince Bagration-Imeretinsky       = King of Imereti


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by james_h »

David_Pritchard

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Re: mediatized titles would have been.
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2006, 11:42:12 PM »
Welcome back James!

It has been a little dull without your input. You have surprised me with your latest historical proposition. Of all the families that you mention of being equal in a central European mediatised manner, one of them actually was meditised by the Russians, the Royal House of Georgia. The catch being that the Russians did not honour the treaty though there have been a few official exceptions.

Best wishes,

David

james_h

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Re: mediatized titles would have been.
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2006, 02:03:04 AM »
 ;D Hey Dave!!

Dont just read it add to the list!!!! There should be about 300  polities represented here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by james_h »

james_h

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Re: mediatized titles would have been.
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2006, 02:12:16 AM »
A wee adition to the Guriey, not only were they the premiere chingizid dynasty they were also recognized as 2nd dynasty of the Ottoman empire, that is, if the Osmanli became extinct they would have succeeded as the Ottoman imperial family :))))


It bothers me that some of these lines are far, far more senior than Hesse-Darmstadt, yet Alix was considered equal.

Also while being elevated to the rank of prince of the Russian Empire was certainly a promotion for the majority of the Russian Princely dynasties for some it was a severe demotion. To consider them all equal, borders....on both scurrility and lunacy!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by james_h »

David_Pritchard

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Re: mediatized titles would have been.
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2006, 04:03:49 AM »
I believe that the ancient princely houses were perceived as socially and politically threatening by the Romanovs. Remember that by the time that the Romanovs were elected to rule Russia, the Rurikid families had been princes, grand princes and tsars for over seven hundred years. When the Rurikids were ruling over Kiev in the year 900, the Romanovs were living in a hole in the ground filled with leaves for warmth.

When you use the term "Light Princes" do you mean Serene, Durchlaucht and Svetlost? Or are you meaning a lesser prince?

David

james_h

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Re: mediatized titles would have been.
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2006, 01:50:45 PM »

A lesser Prince.
But a sovereign in the land of Rus appears to have always have the title prince, yet not all princes were equal or even regarded as such. But most ruled little more than  one little town.

Offline AkshayChavan

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Re: mediatized titles would have been.
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2006, 08:47:24 AM »
Were Gureys of Crimea part of Russian nobility? I read that after annexation of Crimea , the Crimean royal family went to live in Istanbul. So technically they were Ottoman aristocrats.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AkshayChavan »

james_h

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Re: mediatized titles would have been.
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2006, 04:43:08 PM »
          
               
(¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`··
     Titles of Tartar/Monogolian Origin       ·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯)
               
     
     

AKTCHOURINE (T)
BAIOUCHEV (T)
BAYTERKOV
BEKOVITCH-TCHERKASKY
BIGILDEEV (T)
CHEDIAKOV
CHIRINSKY (T)
CHIRINSKY-CHIMKHMATOV (T)
DEVLET-KILDEEV (T)
DIVEIEV (T)
DONDOLTKOV (kalmouks) *
DONDOUKOV-KORSAKOV (tr) *
DONDOUKOV-IZIEDINOV tr) *
ENGALYTCHEV (Jean) (T)
ENGALYTCHEV (Chatza) (T)
ENGALYTCHEV (Ischamet) (T)
ENGALYTCHEV (Simeon) (T)
ENIKEIEV (JENIKEIEV) (T)
GANTIMOUROY (toungouss)
GLINSKY
GUIREY (khanat de Crimee)
ISCHEEV (T)
KAZANSKY (de KAZAN) Tzars
KEIKUATOV (T)
KILDICHEV (T)
KOSTROV
KOUCHOUMOV
KOUDACHEV (T)
     KOUGOUCHEV (T)
KOULOUNTCHAKOV (T)
KOUTKINE (T)
KOUTOUMOV (T)
KOUTYREV (T)
MAKINSKY khans
MAMATKAZINE (T)
MAMATOV (T)
MAMLEIEV *
MAMINE (T)
MANGITZKY
MANSYREV (T)
MAXOUTOV (T)
MESTCHERSKY *
MOUSTAFINE (T)
NAGAISKY
NAKHITCHEVANSKY khans
OUROUSSOV *
PERSE de Altesse Serenissirne
SIBIRSKY Tzarevitchs
SOUMAROKOV-ELSTON comtes
STOKASSIMOV (T)
TCHEGODAIEV (T)
TENICHEV (T)
TUMENEV
YOUSSOUPOV *
YOUSSOUPOV princes,*
YAOUCHEV (T)

((T) =  confirmed Tartar prince)
Those marked with * = Titles incorporated into the 'Empire of Russia'

Copyright © 99-00 A.Khilkoff-Boulding



I believe the above comes from...

 Titres Nobiliaires 862 - 1917 ' (pub 1985) ' Union De La Noblesse Russe ' by N.P. Komaroff - Kourloff 10 Square de Chatillon 75014 PARIS France
     

Alternately were they "KRYMSKII (of the Crimea)" the family metioned on...

Genealogies in the Collection of T.F. Boettger - Russian Empire
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by james_h »

David_Pritchard

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Re: mediatized titles would have been.
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2006, 10:02:41 PM »
I was looking through on of my genealogy books containing the more exotic non-Russian princely houses recognised in the Russian Empire and found the described as follows

Emperors, Hosodars and Princes Kantakouzenos and Princes Kantakuzin, Counts Speransky.

Hospodars and Princes Kantemir.

Tsarevichs of Kasimov, Kasimovsky.

Hospodars, Princes and Nobles Mavrocordato.

Hospodars and Princes Mourouzi.

Tsarevichs and Princes of Siberia, Sibirsky.

Hospodars and Princes Dabidja.

Surely these families should have been regarded as being of meditised status.

David


Offline ukupeeter

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Re: mediatized titles would have been.
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2006, 01:34:17 PM »
"Please note that I put the Georgian Dukes in as Princes because Russian "Light Princes" seemed to have reigned over little more than a single town, whereas the georgian duchies were significantly more than that. Some times incompassing 9 or more towns "

This is not true.
Russian "Light Princes" ancestors reigned in Kiev-Russia and in Lithuania- Belorus.

sovereigns in Georgia:

prince Gelovani
prince Gurieli
prince Bagration- Murahanski
HSH prince of Imeretia (Imertinski)
HSH prince of Georgia (Gruzinski)
prince Dadiani ( Mingrelski)
HSH prince Schervaschidze ( Abhasia)
prince Dadeshkaliani
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by ukupeeter »

Offline ukupeeter

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Re: mediatized titles would have been.
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2006, 01:39:33 PM »
Quote
I was looking through on of my genealogy books containing the more exotic non-Russian princely houses recognised in the Russian Empire and found the described as follows

Emperors, Hosodars and Princes Kantakouzenos and Princes Kantakuzin, Counts Speransky.

Hospodars and Princes Kantemir.


Tsarevichs of Kasimov, Kasimovsky.

Hospodars, Princes and Nobles Mavrocordato.

Hospodars and Princes Mourouzi.

Tsarevichs and Princes of Siberia, Sibirsky.

Hospodars and Princes Dabidja.

Surely these families should have been regarded as being of meditised status.

David





Prince Makulov :)

Princess Makulova was a mother of HSH Piotr prince Volkonski.



Offline ukupeeter

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Re: mediatized titles would have been.
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2006, 01:55:23 PM »
Prince Tarkovski , scahmal ( Dagestan) ( ancestor was a uncle of prophet  Mohhamed al-Abbas)

Offline ukupeeter

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Re: mediatized titles would have been.
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2006, 01:58:40 PM »
Hiva  khans
Buhhara emirs

james_h

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Re: mediatized titles would have been.
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2006, 05:30:54 PM »
Quote


This is not true.
Russian "Light Princes" ancestors reigned in Kiev-Russia and in Lithuania- Belorus.



So what? Grant Menzies ancestor was Charlemagne but Grant doesn't reign anywhere.
It's not about where you're ancestors reigned. It's about the polity you find yourself sovereign over.


Offline ukupeeter

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Re: mediatized titles would have been.
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2006, 12:31:14 AM »
Quote
This is not true.
Russian "Light Princes" ancestors reigned in Kiev-Russia and in Lithuania- Belorus.



So what? Grant Menzies ancestor was Charlemagne but Grant doesn't reign anywhere.
It's not about where you're ancestors reigned. It's about the polity you find yourself sovereign over.




Rjurikovich ancestors in direct male line were Grand Dukes of Kiev-Russia and Gediminovich ancestors in direct male line were Grand Dukes Lithuania.
They reign everywhere. They were sovreigns.