Author Topic: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news  (Read 308897 times)

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Offline britt.25

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #105 on: July 08, 2006, 02:11:45 AM »
Maybe you can tell me, if you get any answer concerning your questions...I made the experience that I often do not receive any answer to mails, if I ask for infos or something, may it be on napoleonic websites, or may it be the relatives of Napoleon themselves..it´s a pity. Maybe you are lucky and can get some useful answers... :)
When the period at the university is finally over (about the 20 th of this month) I will finally try to  write to to interview Charles... :)
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Offline Dmitry2006

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #106 on: July 08, 2006, 10:49:52 PM »
Dear friends!

Here of what I think.

At studying genealogy Bonaparte I have paid attention to some dates concerning directly by a life of Charles.
He married princess Beatrice in 1978. Before this event there should be an acquaintance, engagement and a betrothal. I think Charles and Beatrice 10 years till 1986 should be familiar with each other at least. Unless what their marriage has ended soon after a birth of their son not seems concurrence? I think this concurrence cannot be casual. In fact to the boy was three years when their parents have divorced. I do not know, how much marriage Charles and Beatrice, if in 1986 at them one more daughter (instead of the son) was born still can last? I think, girls hardly can apply for the French throne under the laws excluding the right of women on inheritance. Whether it is possible to assume, what Beatrice was too royal princess and the aristocrat to be mother for bonapartist pretender for the French throne and the successor of such odious figures (for the European monarches and aristocrats), how Napoleon I and its nephew Napoleon III?


Unfortunately, we so know about modern Bonaparte a little! I have spent so a lot of time, searching for the information about this family in search systems!!!

Offline britt.25

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #107 on: August 02, 2006, 02:58:53 AM »
A pity that a lot of the last posts here are lost by that "crash" some days ago. Seth, would you be so kind to send the picture of Charles and the link to the article about the journey of the Prince to Westphalia, where his ancestor was reigning once more? The text is german, but very interesting, and it shows the friendly, and somewhere "simlpe" and "civil" character of Charles Napoleon, who is said to speak German very well in that article (he once also wrote this to me)  Unfortunately I did not get any answer to my letters to him. It´s a pity, and I don´t somewhere I don´t understand it, because he once seemed to cooperative to me. I am very unhappy, because I would have been very interested in any interview, maybe he is too busy, but why does he not give the task to any secretary to let me know this? Why does he simply oversee my letters?


Here I have a quite nice picture of Louis Napoleon and Alix, the prince looks very friendly, I like his smiling that can he seen also on the childhood photo, which I once sent.

I give here the original title of the photo (description on the back):

"Le prince et la princesse Napoléon arrivent à Léopoldville. -- Venant de Bruxelles par avion, le prince et la princesse Napoléon ont été accueillis, à leur arrivée à aérodrome de Léopoldville, par M. De THIBAULT, Vice-Gouverneur général.

(Belga- V.H. 19/1/53)



La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

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Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #108 on: August 06, 2006, 10:47:24 PM »
Excuse me, but I cannot consider their as present princes. Excuse me, but I cannot recognize their family having regal advantage.
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Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #109 on: August 06, 2006, 10:57:51 PM »
When I studied genealogy Bonaparte families, I have paid attention to some dates, concerning Charles Napoleon. Charles Napoleon married first wife Beatrice de Bourbon Two-Sicilies in 1978. I think, acquaintance, engagement and a betrothal should precede their wedding. I think, they should be familiar with each other before the wedding some time. In 1980 their daughter Carolina was born. After a birth of the daughter their marriage proceeded six more years. I think, Charles Napoleon and its first wife should know each other at least 10 years. In 1986 their son was born. After that their marriage for some reason was upset. In 1989 Charles Napoleon and Beatrice have divorced. I assume, that divorce of parents after a birth of their son cannot be casual. I think, that Beatrice was too aristocratic princess of royal blood to be mother of the successor of the Napoleonic dynasty who has arisen after Great French revolution 1789 - the 1794 which derthrown and have decapitated King Louis XVI. After revolution the French throne has been borrowed by Napoleon who has proclaimed itself emperor under the personal initiative. During crowning 1804 Napoleon has pulled out an imperial crown from hands of the Pope Roman and has with own hand assigned it to the head. That is Napoleon was not the Anointed sovereign Divine, and only the dictator, which leaned on army. As a matter of fact Napoleon has simply stolen never a throne belonged it. And now son Charles Napoleon and Beatrice de Bourbon Two-Sicilies is the successor of the Napoleonic Dynasty. On a twist of fate, in veins Bonaparte blood of French and the Spanish kings from ancient French dynasty Capetiens flows. I have one interesting question. Marriage Charles Napoleon and Beatrice de Bourbon Two-Sicilies has how much proceeded, if in 1986 at them was born not the son, and one more daughter ? Or I am not absolutely right?

I have been very surprised and shocked by this marriage. Excuse, but in Russia there is a Russian saying about this princess. About this princess would tell, that she does not remember the royal origin and relationship.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2006, 11:02:06 PM by Dmitry Russian »
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Offline britt.25

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #110 on: August 07, 2006, 02:33:04 AM »
I am not so sure what you mean, what do you exactly want to  say?  Do you think the present family is not not the right to be the heir of the Bonaparte family? ???
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

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Offline britt.25

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #111 on: August 07, 2006, 03:18:39 AM »
It´s difficult to consider what would have happed to the marriage, if Charles and Beatrice had got one more daughter instead of a son...as I know no details why they really divorced, but I think it would not have changed the situation for the couple, do you think the marriages would have been a longer one then, as they would have had to wait for a son coming, who can become their heir...? I am not sure, as Charles views are very modern, he also would have accepted, if he only had girls.I think he simply went his own ways with the time, which did not fit to Beatrice...Interesting is the fact that his adoptive daugther from Vietnam is also a girl.

Your last sentence I did not really understand, sorry, but has anyone said that his former wife Beatrice did not remember her royal origins? If yes, it seem to be rumours, as Beatrice is very engaged in royal organisations... :o
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #112 on: August 07, 2006, 05:02:10 AM »
Bonaparte the family really has the successors, but I cannot consider their equal to any royal dynasty or any sovereign house.
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Offline britt.25

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #113 on: August 07, 2006, 05:43:23 AM »
Hello..please do also look to your PM, and so sorry that it´s not possible to me to answer your questions in a better way, there are so many things that I would like to have "enlightened", but I do not know the answers myself :'(
It´s a pity that Charles doesn´t write to me :'(

Yes, I think you are right, it´s difficult to compare the house of Bonaparte to any other royal families, which have a longer royal tradition that the descendants of Napoleon, but despite of it consider that Charles Napoleon has a lot of legitimate royal blood: Bourbon, Saxe-Corburg-Gotha, Habsburg and so on, one of the very little circle of people that I know and who are interested in Bonaparte told me: Charles Napoleon has more Bourbon Blood than the count of Paris! And indeed somewhere that´t true. And now think about the other royal families: From the nature all people are equal  and once all royal people have been normal people. Think of the Habsburgs: Rudolf I, in 13 th century was the first king, before there were other families like the descendants of  Charles the great, before Rudolf became king the Habsburgs had been not more than counts...and now think of Napoleon, he was only from low Corsican nobility, but from a rather poor, but good and noble family, his ancestors were from Sarzana and Florence and had good positions. The name Bonaparte (Buonaparte) was given to Napoleons ancestry as a sign of honour in the time of the civil wars in Italy in the middleages...
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline pouvoir aux canards

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #114 on: August 07, 2006, 08:31:41 AM »
...and now think of Napoleon, he was only from low Corsican nobility, but from a rather poor, but good and noble family, his ancestors were from Sarzana and Florence and had good positions. The name Bonaparte (Buonaparte) was given to Napoleons ancestry as a sign of honour in the time of the civil wars in Italy in the middleages...

Hello, Britta, you seem well-informed; I just want to add some details and considerations: as I am living near Lucca and Pisa, I know a very interesting private archiv... (it is a little more than an archiv, so I explain) ... named La Zecca di Lucca. Zecca means money but also the institution were money is really elaborated.(Geld praegen I mean) In Lucca this elaboration began very very soon (probabely under Roman ruling) but is securely documented only from 12th century. They don't do money anymore, of course (they stopped when Carlo II "sold" Lucca to Tuscany on 1847 to return for briefly ruling Parma)  but they can show you old machines, very old  documents and so on... One of the things they can show you is the coat of arms of the Buonaparte family, as one of the families responsibles for ruling the territories, long time ago. And they relate this coat of arms with Pisa rulers (Lucca and Pisa were fighting for the territory).
Also in Pisa there is something who tells about nobility of the Buonaparte: there is in Piazza dei CAVALIERI  an University (created by Napoleon and called La Scuola Normale or La Normale. From this school are the main politics of Italy... ) Into the school are painted the arms of coat (wappen) of all the post-medioeval  nobilty, the so-called CAVALIERI DI SANTO STEFANO (Knights of San Stefan) and one of the teachers (in History) of this school said me that the arms of some ancestors of Napoleon are here painted...

Something else: about the "heir of Bonaparte dynasty"; I met him briefly once in Ajaccio on occasion of a party... for some cultural event... he seems to me a very very very busy young manager not at all antipathic but really ambitiously busy , so if you want something from him, try to offer something to him that could be usefull for his projects... About the reasons of his divorce, for me the discussion could be out-forum (but the responsibles persons who are ruling the Forum must decide) as this topic belongs only to his private life. Could we like our own divorce be discussed on Internet?

Last thing, about the too much recent nobility of the Bonaparte among the royals: AS YOU SAID, to be a royal is a question of success in the conquest of power. But then they became a class apart, with their own cultural rules (cultural in a large sense, antropologically) and I think THAT makes really a ROYAL:  his possibility to adapt and fully adopt these rules (as an example of these rules, it could be the things you buy, the things you wear, the way you talk, and so on to infinity...) On this point of view, quite all the Bonaparte had a sudden integration, more easy by some weddings (Wurtemberg, Eugène, etc) their richness (for some of them), and their intelligence to act (mainly) with some politic sense,  witch makes them possible consorts for the older nobility during the 19th century (with some out-sider)

Best regards, I hope I help you a little bit.

David_Pritchard

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #115 on: August 07, 2006, 02:43:59 PM »
M. Canard,

Do you know if any of the descendents of the nobles created by Emperor Napoléon I have yet been accepted into the SMOM as Knights or Dames of Honour and Devotion?

David

Offline pouvoir aux canards

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #116 on: August 07, 2006, 06:44:46 PM »
M. Canard,
Do you know if any of the descendents of the nobles created by Emperor Napoléon I have yet been accepted into the SMOM as Knights or Dames of Honour and Devotion?
David

My Dear Friend,

I think SMOM means Ordre Souverain de Malte ?! (I am not a specialist of Knight orders) So my humble opinion is : 

1// Bonaparte has been a plague for the Sv. Order (1798, with 600  war-boats and 30 000 soldiers general Napoléon Bonaparte coureagously assailed Malta who (he knows) had only 300 knights and 6.000 soldiers…) Also the french Republic appropriated the  properties of the Order in France and wherever France ruled…. So…

2// but History is a river and goes on… the Sov. Order counts 12 000 members and as we said before the descendents of Napoléon are very integrated in the group of  the Royals, and the descendents of napoleonic nobilty are also very well integrated in the european aristocracy… But

3// as you know –but someone in the Forum purhaps do not – the Sov. Order is still a rigid theocratic-aristocratic system and there are only 3 sorts of members ; (let me say that in french now) :    
a-les chevaliers d'honneur et de dévotion , (the one you tell in your question, Knights of Honour and Devotion)
b-les chevaliers de grâce et de dévotion,
c-les chevaliers de grâce magistrale
(Same 3 sorts of titles for the women, les Dames etc...)

To became a “a-knight” (chevalier d'honneur et de dévotion) you may present 8 noble direct ancestors  (vous devez présenter huit quartiers de noblesse) that means all your gran-grandfathers and grangrandmothers have  been pure nobles !!!!!!!!. Is the Napoleonic nobilty accepted by the Sov.Order? I think so, but I am not absolutely sure. Anyway rares are the persons ables to present such a score... many weddings were contracted out of nobilty's circle during the last two centuries...(so many rich american girls and so on...)

To became a “b-knight” (chevalier de grâce et de dévotion) you may prove 2 centuries of nobilty  (vous devez  prouver deux siècle de noblesse) that means the line of your father has to be noble from 200 years and for the nobilty created by Napoléon this could have been hard stuff…until 2004

To became a c-knight  (chevaliers de grâce magistrale) you have no noble ancestor to present… purhaps if you are very generous, it helps ??? Anyway, to became a member of the Sov. Order, you need to strictly obey to 4 conditions:
to be a catholic
to be presented by a Knight of the Order
to have worked for the order during some years
to accept the ethic of the Order.

End of the party : your questio was Do you know if any of the descendents of the nobles created by Emperor Napoléon I have yet been accepted into the SMOM as Knights or Dames of Honour and Devotion?
And my answer is that I do not know the name of the 12 000 members, that I remember not a napoleonic' nobilty name among the names of the Knights and Dames I can remember, but it could be, it could be....

IF IT IS, I hope that before their admittance, they are obliged to fall down on their knees and to ask pardon, grace, mercy, forgiveness to the 12 000 members of the community and to the souls of the poors 300 knights of true nobilty, surrending to Général Bonaparte because they choosed to lose anything in obedience to their rule witch prohibits them to fight against other christians…

Your devoted

M. Canard

Offline britt.25

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #117 on: August 08, 2006, 01:46:05 AM »
Most of these recent facts were very interesting and also new to me! But the question with the "SMOM" was referrring not to the descendants of Napoleon (or napoleonic- connected families), but only to the by Napoleon created nobility (that means to people, who are not related in a boodline to him)?? I am not sure if I understood it correctly in this way...You said it it would be necessary to present eight noble ansistors. Concerning the todays familymembers related to old Bonaparte that´s very different. The family and the descendants of Napoleon and his brothers are very widespread, also in different countries and their ancestry is very different. For the head of the family Charles napoleon the criteries would certainly fit in my opinion as he has Bourbon ancestry, Habsburg acestry, Savoia, Saxe Coburg-Gotha and much more in his blood. So what is about this? Would he fit?  Concenring many other descendants it would be much more difficult, The American Line of Jerome has already died out in 1945  with Charles Jerome Bonaparte and the descendants of Lucien are mostly people from the italian nobility today (counts, but not belonging to a higher reigning nobility-for example: del Gallo (Roccagiovine), Bucci-Casari, Faina, Parisani etc etc etc, especially descending from the daugthers of Lucien B. and Christine Boyer and Alexandrine de Bleschamp), the famous Marie Bonaparte descending from Pierre-Napoleon ("murderer of Victor Noir"), son of Lucien, had a lot of civil ancestry like Marie Hensel ot Francois Blanc (who are famous in my hometown), but her children belonged to the greek royals, but I am not sure if for example her grandson Carlo Alessandro della Torre a Tasso fulfills the criteries? I know him a bit personally, but only from the phone. Concering the descendants of Napoleons Bastards (count Leon, and Walewski), as well as the Murats and the nobility from Napoleons generals I don´t think, that they fulfill the facts that you told in your message, many of the Murat people are connected with international or french nobility, but not in this sense with high (or reiging royals). Not at all. Most of them are connected with counts and similar nobility. Also the chief of the Murat family, Joachim , born in 1944, having four or five children, does not have enough royal (direct!) ancestry I think, his ancestry can be leaded back to the house of Bavaria and the counts of Palatine and the early Habsburgs, but that is very far away. Do one have to present eight direct ansistors from nobility in general or in the direct line (without an hole)? That makes a difference. But concerning Charles Napoleon it could be interesting to discuss the question, as he has a lot of direct royal blood. What do you think about this? And: Which nobility was also meant, when saying "the by Napoleon created nobility"??
« Last Edit: August 08, 2006, 01:56:34 AM by britt.25 »
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

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David_Pritchard

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #118 on: August 08, 2006, 02:12:10 AM »
I meant the new nobles that were created by the Emperor of France, the King of Westphalia, the King of Naples and the King of Spain, the various chevaliers, barons, counts, princes and dukes of the Empire. I wanted to know if their claim to two hundred years of male line nobility has been recognised by the Sovereign Military Order of Malta for admission into the higher grade of Knight of Grace and Devotion and if anyone with eight quarters of nobility including one or more quarter that is Napoleonic in origin, has been accepted as a Knight of Honour and Devotion?

David

Offline britt.25

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #119 on: August 08, 2006, 02:30:58 AM »
So you didn´t mean Napoleons relatives themselves, only the nobility they created?
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)