Imperial France: House Bonaparte news

[David_Pritchard]

So you didn´t mean Napoleons relatives themselves, only the nobility they created?

Correct. As in the members of this organisation who are part of the historic nobility created under the various Napoleonic sovereigns (less those members who are actually Napoleon's relatives): http://www.unionenobiltanapoleonica.8k.com/index.html

David

[britt.25]

I know this site and it´s very interesting, I was always impressed by the interesting activities in those organizations, but the descendants of Napoleon (relatives), do also have important positions there, they are mentioned quite often, especially Prince Murat, I think the Princes Murat (for example) belong to the nobility, which was created by Napoleon, and through the marriage of J. Murat with Napoleons sister, they are also related to him. Here are only two examples, where descendants of NB take part in these organizations and festivals...


sarà presente
Louis Napoléon Bonaparte-Wyse
discendente di Luciano Bonaparte, Principe di Canino

Venerdì 22 Novembre

Manifestazioni in ricordo di Re Murat alla presenza di Sua Altezza Reale il Principe Murat.

[David_Pritchard]

If you have not already reviewed these interesting site, you should find them of great interest:

Napoleonic Heraldry http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/napolher.htm

Napoleonic Titles and Heraldry http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/napoleon.htm

Symbolism of the Emperor's Coat-of-Arms http://www.napoleon.org/fr/essentiels/symbolique/index.asp

Système héraldique napoléonien http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm

Couronnes et Toques en héraldique napoléonienne http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm

Maréchaux d'Empire http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm

Maisons princières ou ducales http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm

[pouvoir aux canards]

Salve Britta, Salve My Dear Friend.

Logic says that also Napoleon and family, AS emperor, princesses, kings and so on are of Napoleonic Nobilty (the situation of their descendents is the same as the situation of a descendent of Prince de la Moskova if there is one, ecc). Only Pauline was a Princesse Borghèse but Dermide died and there is no descendents...

The real questio remains : ARE THE NOBLES OF 1rst and 2nd EMPIRES authorized to claim for a title of Knight (whatever it could be) of the Sov. Order of Malta???

It seems possible to ask the Sovreign Order, by Jove !! They have an adress in Roma, and they will certainly answer kindly, as Knights they are...  I live in Italy, I can write or phone to them, If you want.

And also, I have something for you, una chicca (a grape) as we say in Italy:

http://inmf.org                ..... A MEXICAN SITE FOR NAPOLéON .... something sub-real... with a serious

Mensaje de S.A.I. el Príncipe Charles Napoléon al pueblo de México,

and a not less serious

Mensajes de los Mexicanos al Príncipe Charles Napoléon, jefe de la Casa Imperial de Francia



I remain Your devoted

M. Canard

[britt.25]

If you have not already reviewed these interesting site, you should find them of great interest:

Napoleonic Heraldry http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/napolher.htm

Napoleonic Titles and Heraldry http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/napoleon.htm

Symbolism of the Emperor's Coat-of-Arms http://www.napoleon.org/fr/essentiels/symbolique/index.asp

Système héraldique napoléonien http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm

Couronnes et Toques en héraldique napoléonienne http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm

Maréchaux d'Empire http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm

Maisons princières ou ducales http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm

Firstly to David: Thanks for these interesting links! I will need more time to look...

[britt.25]

Salve Britta, Salve My Dear Friend.

Logic says that also Napoleon and family, AS emperor, princesses, kings and so on are of Napoleonic Nobilty (the situation of their descendents is the same as the situation of a descendent of Prince de la Moskova if there is one, ecc). Only Pauline was a Princesse Borghèse but Dermide died and there is no descendents...

The real questio remains : ARE THE NOBLES OF 1rst and 2nd EMPIRES authorized to claim for a title of Knight (whatever it could be) of the Sov. Order of Malta???

It seems possible to ask the Sovreign Order, by Jove !! They have an adress in Roma, and they will certainly answer kindly, as Knights they are...  I live in Italy, I can write or phone to them, If you want.

And also, I have something for you, una chicca (a grape) as we say in Italy:

http://inmf.org                ..... A MEXICAN SITE FOR NAPOLéON .... something sub-real... with a serious

Mensaje de S.A.I. el Príncipe Charles Napoléon al pueblo de México,

and a not less serious

Mensajes de los Mexicanos al Príncipe Charles Napoléon, jefe de la Casa Imperial de Francia



I remain Your devoted

M. Canard

Dear M. Canard, that´s very interesting...I am always so impressed by your widepread knowlegde! 
It´s impossible. I think, we others are all to bad for you

If you have an address to find out more about this question, I would be very interested. As I already said I would be very interested to interview Charles also concerning this question, which is discusssed here, but he really doesn´t respond. I think, it´s not fair that he once promised to me, to give me this interview.
If you can phone the souverain Order , I would be very curious, what they say.
And concerning the napoleonic Nobility I also think that napoleons descendants and relatives, descending from the king of Westphalia, Prince of Canino, king of Spain (as he had only daughers he married daugher Zenaide to her cousin, the son of Lucien: Charles Lucien -He was also a player at Francois Blanc´s Casino from my hometown! ) and so on should be included to the napoleonic nobility, as those princely titles,  counts and so on, and also the title of the todays chief of the Bonaparte family descending from the Jerome-line, would never exist if Napoleon I had not reigned and had made them to the onces they were with their new titles...! It´s really interesting, how widespread this "familytradition" and "nepotism" was also under the reign of Napoleon III., there were so many men with good and high positions and titles descending somewhere from the Bonaparte line, or having  same ansistors more far away: Like the counts d´Ornano, the duc d. Padoue, and so on, they all had ansistors from the Bonaparte line, from which also descended the emperors (N I and N III)

And please: if you can, phone or write to this organization, I would be very interested and curious!

Britta 

[pouvoir aux canards]

Dear M. Canard, that´s very interesting...I am always so impressed by your widepread knowlegde! 
It´s impossible. I think, we others are all to bad for you

... It´s really interesting, how widespread this "familytradition" and "nepotism" was also under the reign of Napoleon III., there were so many men with good and high positions and titles descending somewhere from the Bonaparte line, or having  same ansistors more far away: Like the counts d´Ornano...

And please: if you can, phone or write to this organization, I would be very interested and curious!

Britta 

Dear Britta,

I like your sense of humour,  but M. Canard is not a peacock, he is an humble duck and wants to remain a poor gruff pedantic duck ... 

My dear friend Pritchard is not present on the Forum, so I promise you to phone to our brave and generous Knights and to tell you every detail of the talk... Be patient and consider that we are in august, that many people is now, and until the end of august, long away from work and offices...

I kiss humbly your hands 

your devoted 

M. Canard


P.S. I agree with you about the particular napoleonic nepotist tradition... but consider first the italian origins of N.I : at this time, that means a mental structure that trusts FIRST in the family, clan, intimate group as brothers, uncles, husbands of the sisters, brothers-in-war, his military group -.  Second, if we consider the special positions (related to the problem of keeping power) of the two emperors, we can understand that they NEEDED  a nobilty. They equally needed an integration of antic nobilty in their First Circle and a creation of a new nobilty,  depending directly from themselves, to govern, administrate, overlook. Old nobilty had some experience (of "how to became a royal", for example...)
 Anyway I do not appraise very much all the napoleonic tribu... only some individualities (I appraise Eugène, Hortense, Mathilde and N.III f.e) and I do not like - but I recognize the genius of N.I, a man able to clearly understand and manage with greatness so many problems ... among the new napoleonic nobilty, few of them remained faithfulls or simply gratefulls... and among the "bipolar nobilty" (persons formerly nobles that N.I gived a title...) there were good and bad persons (as persons who played the card of the new nobilty when N.I or N.III were ruling and played the other one, of antic nobilty when they were taken away from the Great Stage of the Power).
 

[britt.25]

Dear M. Canard,

Thanks  very much for your reply. It really seems to me that some of the usual contributors are not present at the moment, maybe because they are on holidays...the weather is sooo bad in Germany at the moment...I suppose in Italy it must be much better. I has been soo hot before , but as soon as the summer break at the university began, it became baaad!

Now concering "sense of humour" etc. In this case it was really meant seriously. I really admire your deep knowlege, and you seem to me like a person having read very very very  much and being very intelligent. All your contributions are so well elaborated and everything seems of such a pefectness that -in my opinion- nobody can share here.

As you are french ( I think I had read it somewhere on the forum), I would like to know, how is Napoleon (generally) seen today there?  I know you live in Italy, but you will know it. I always had and have the impression that Napoleon is still much celebrated in France today, but do also critic voices rise? Or is critisism seen as an offence there?

I would be very interested not only in your personal opionion, but also in the general status of Napoleon today.
Can you tell  me some of your experiences?

[Dmitry Russian]

Excuse me, but I cannot consider noblemen of an epoch of Empire of Napoleon Bonaparte as the present aristocrats and noblemen 

[Dmitry Russian]

They have met, have grown fond each other, have got married, have given birth to children, and then they have divorced. Unless their children were guilty? Why they should suffer, because their mum and the daddy have quarrelled and have divorced? 

[britt.25]

You think that the napoleonic nobility should not be included into the european aristocracy as Napoleon was a "Parvenue"??

[Dmitry Russian]

Yes

[Seth Leonard]

Hello all .

Got a reply from M. Choffat recently (I'm glad he even responded to my emails as the French I used was probably horrid ). I thought it interesting that he and his organization recognize Jean Christophe as The Prince Napoléon, although I had previously read that that was the case.

Here are the questions I asked and the answers he gave:

Q: What are the current activities of H.I.H. The Princess Napoléon? Is she involved with the Bonapartist organizations? Does the Princess attend many royal events?
A: HIH the Princess Alix Napoléon has rather historical activities (inaugurations, dépôts de gerbes [not sure what that means ] (Arc de Triomphe, Invalides...), dinners, presence or presidency of symposia [he used the word colloques], preface works, participation to the Laid Days Open 13th Regiment of Parachute Dragons to Dieuze of which she is the godmother. ..)

Q: What are the activities of the son of the princess, H.I.H. the Prince Jérôme? Is he still a librarian at the World Health Organization in Geneva?
A: H.I.H. the Prince Jérôme Napoléon is since 1996, librarian to the World Health Organization (WHO) in Geneva. He followed by the studies in Right [Droit was the word M. Choffat used], in commerce and especially in Bibliothéconomie, documentation archivist. He attended on 6 May a Napoleonic gathering at the Invalides (with his mother and his nephew Prince Jean Christophe Napoléon). He was a volunteer in the 1st regiment of Parachute Hussards in Tarbes from 1977 to 1978.

[Seth Leonard]

Why they should suffer, because their mum and the daddy have quarrelled and have divorced? 

Children are practically always affected the most when their parents divorce, more so than the ex-spouses I would argue. Unfortunately that is just the ways things are.

[britt.25]

Hallo,

I am very glad to meet you here again. The interview you leaded  must have been very interesting. The answers to the questions have brought many new facts to me. The most of it I didn´t know! That´t interesting, especially the activities of Princess Napoleon (Alix). So it really seems to me that she is not the typical  "gossip"  person attending every open royal event, but she is a really serious and historically orientated woman, who has a lot of sense for activities concerning the napoleonic ansistors & heritage and napoleonic events in general. Most of the names of the organizations and activities I haven´t heard before, so they very interesting to know. I must say this kind of royal, like she behaves,  is much more sympathic to me than many of those "newspaper" royals, who are only the gossips victim concerning any scandals. Princess Napoleon must really be an interesting person...
And concerning Prince Jerome, who always seems to be much in the background (in comparison to his elder brother, who is so much involved in political acivities) it´s also very interesting what you wrote. So he has qualificated himself in librarian things and archive work and so on , and that´s also an interesting task,  in general he and his brother seem to be different, Jerome does not seem to be such a "political" person like his brother, only the expression "commerce" in the text reminded me a bit of Charles, as he is a business men (also), but I have the feeling they are quite different. It would be interesting to know, what Jerome thinks about the political (left) opinions and the other professional tasks of his elder brother Charles.
But for now. Thanks for these infos. I am very glad! (Sorry for my bad English today )