Author Topic: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news  (Read 308904 times)

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Offline britt.25

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #135 on: August 11, 2006, 01:14:30 PM »
I also have the opinion. It´s nothing specific in the marriage of Charles and Beatrice. And: We do not have the right to decide, whose fault the divorce was.
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #136 on: August 11, 2006, 06:49:04 PM »
Excuse me, but I cannot consider Bonaparte House as imperial house. I think, it is a farce. Because was only two persons who usurped the French throne which never belonged to them. The uncle and its nephew have brought many misfortunes for France. They conducted numerous wars which are necessary only to emperors, but not France. In 1814 - 1815 France has been occupied by armies of the foreign states. The royal monarchy has been restored by means of foreign armies. Its nephew very much wished to become emperor Napoleon. He became Napoleon number 3. But I think, He became the hostage of such terrible name. But I think, he had problems with mentality because of this reason. In 1870 he already suffered senile dementia. It has ended with Franko-Prussian war, Sedane captivity and the Commune of Paris. Because of only two person with their short reign in France. Do not confuse Bonaparte mode to 800 years of a royal dynasty of Capetiens.

And now Charles Bonaparte is considered his imperial highnes! It is any shameful farce and a comedy!
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Offline Seth Leonard

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #137 on: August 11, 2006, 06:56:52 PM »
And: We do not have the right to decide, whose fault the divorce was.

I completely agree. Not one of us knows what happened in regards to the breakdown in their marriage. Anyways, the children seem to be close to the families of both parents, which I think speaks very well for both Charles and Beatrice, as that means they have worked together to some degree to allow their kids to have normal familial relations which can be severed by divorce.

I think that they are both very respectful of each other, which is such a contrast to such divorced royals as, say, the Prince of Wales and his late ex-wife.

Offline Seth Leonard

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #138 on: August 11, 2006, 07:28:36 PM »
Dimitry, I don't mean to be harsh, but to be quite honest it doesn't matter what you think because your opinion doesn't have any bearing on the status of the Bonapartes. They are and have been an Imperial House since the First Empire, so I'm afraid that you'll just have to deal with it ;).

And H.I.H. The Prince Napoléon has always been an Imperial Highness, we didn't just start addressing him as such. Your view of his titles are pretty similar to the views you have of his cousin H.I.H. Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna and the titles of herself and her family.

Offline Seth Leonard

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #139 on: August 11, 2006, 07:30:50 PM »
Because was only two persons who usurped the French throne which never belonged to them.
How could the Bonapartes usurp something they never claimed? As far as I recall the Bonapartes were Emperors of the French not Kings of France, there is a difference.

Offline Seth Leonard

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #140 on: August 11, 2006, 07:39:16 PM »
The uncle and its nephew have brought many misfortunes for France. They conducted numerous wars which are necessary only to emperors, but not France.
That is purely your opinion. The same could be said of certain French kings.

Quote from: Dmitry Russian
Do not confuse Bonaparte mode to 800 years of a royal dynasty of Capetiens.
No one is confused. And I'm not aware of any current persons who are known as Capetiens, they prefer to be known as the House of Orléans.
Anyways, the new generation of Bonapartes are descendents of Hugh via Beatrice.

Offline Seth Leonard

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #141 on: August 11, 2006, 11:58:58 PM »
A pity that a lot of the last posts here are lost by that "crash" some days ago. Seth, would you be so kind to send the picture of Charles and the link to the article about the journey of the Prince to Westphalia, where his ancestor was reigning once more? The text is german, but very interesting, and it shows the friendly, and somewhere "simlpe" and "civil" character of Charles Napoleon, who is said to speak German very well in that article (he once also wrote this to me)  Unfortunately I did not get any answer to my letters to him. It´s a pity, and I don´t somewhere I don´t understand it, because he once seemed to cooperative to me. I am very unhappy, because I would have been very interested in any interview, maybe he is too busy, but why does he not give the task to any secretary to let me know this? Why does he simply oversee my letters?


Here I have a quite nice picture of Louis Napoleon and Alix, the prince looks very friendly, I like his smiling that can he seen also on the childhood photo, which I once sent.

I give here the original title of the photo (description on the back):

"Le prince et la princesse Napoléon arrivent à Léopoldville. -- Venant de Bruxelles par avion, le prince et la princesse Napoléon ont été accueillis, à leur arrivée à aérodrome de Léopoldville, par M. De THIBAULT, Vice-Gouverneur général.

(Belga- V.H. 19/1/53)


Dear Britta,
Very sorry that I didn't see your message till now. Unfortunately the link to the article w/photo isn't working for me (here's the link: http://www.hna.de/kasselticker/00_20060717211041_Der_war_wirklich_lustig.html, maybe the problem will get fixed). However I think that the same article (without the photo :() can be found here: http://www.nh24.de/content/view/1438/59/. Thanks for that picture.

Offline britt.25

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #142 on: August 12, 2006, 02:33:19 AM »
Hello,
Thanks for repeating the source with the interesting report on the vacation of Charles Napoleon here to Germany. There had been a software crash some weeks ago , the moderator said, so ypur former message simply went away some day...The text is really very interesting, as it shows somewhere the "simple" and "civil"  character of Charles Napoleon. If you have any understanding problems with it, please let me know and I´ll translate some details.... ;)
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline britt.25

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #143 on: August 12, 2006, 02:44:13 AM »
Excuse me, but I cannot consider Bonaparte House as imperial house. I think, it is a farce. Because was only two persons who usurped the French throne which never belonged to them. The uncle and its nephew have brought many misfortunes for France. They conducted numerous wars which are necessary only to emperors, but not France. In 1814 - 1815 France has been occupied by armies of the foreign states. The royal monarchy has been restored by means of foreign armies. Its nephew very much wished to become emperor Napoleon. He became Napoleon number 3. But I think, He became the hostage of such terrible name. But I think, he had problems with mentality because of this reason. In 1870 he already suffered senile dementia. It has ended with Franko-Prussian war, Sedane captivity and the Commune of Paris. Because of only two person with their short reign in France. Do not confuse Bonaparte mode to 800 years of a royal dynasty of Capetiens.

And now Charles Bonaparte is considered his imperial highnes! It is any shameful farce and a comedy!


I am not the moderator of this thread, but I must say you are going too far here, everyone can have his own opinion, but this message board should not become a place to make other people ridiculous without having any profound background knowledge about them. At the beginning I thought you were interested in the topic, but know I see you only try to put a person down, who you don´t even know. Do you know Charles ? No!
You talk as if Charles Napoleon had occupied his title without any rights or only let himself call imperial highness, but he inheritated it from the  the ansistors, and furthermore is it nonsense to put the blame concerning a bad behaviour of Napoleon I on his todays relative Charles! And why the Bonapartes are confused with the Capetiens in your opinion?? They are two different dynasties!
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline britt.25

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #144 on: August 12, 2006, 02:50:54 AM »
Your opinion about N III is also a bit strange in my view. Have you haver read a book on emperor Napoleon III.?
That he became mentally ill because of the "shame of his name", the "hostage" he was of it, and the bad things that were brought to France because of the reign of him and his uncle Napoleon...it something what a serious historian would deny, I think. I have literature on Napoleon III and it does not confirm your statements. Sorry to say that.  >:(
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #145 on: August 13, 2006, 05:41:21 AM »
Please, excuse me. Probably, I have got excited. Simply I know about reign in France only two emperors. It was the uncle and its nephew. Probably, I was not right, when considered  their as usurpers. But let's recollect, how they became emperors of France. Let's recollect still also their origin. Let's recollect, how Napoleon has made revolution in 1799. Let's recollect, how it became emperor of France. Let's recollect 1812. Let's recollect, that was till this year and that was after that year. Let's recollect, that was after its hundred days. Let's recollect white royalist terror, occupation, huge contributions. Let's recollect, how its nephew became emperor of France. Let's recollect its military adventures. Let's recollect the Mexican expedition, East war (or Crimean) against Russia, the Commune of Paris. Let's recollect about war against Prussia in 1870. What it is necessary to recollect? Let's recollect, that the uncle was emperor of France of 10 years and 100 more days. Let's recollect, that reign of its nephew last 18 years. If to summarize these figures, we shall receive only 28 years. Means, the general reign of the French emperors was equal to 28 years. And what such 28 years? Half of youth of the person? Really 28 years are enough that Bonaparte House were an imperial dynasty, and its members referred to as their imperial highneses? It very much and is not enough.

For comparison: till 1789 there were 800 years of reign of royal dynasties of Valois, Bourbons, Anjouis and some other. But these royal dynasties have the general origin from the house of Capetiens. For comparison: the dynasty of Russian tsars of Romanovs reigned in Russia 300 years (1613 - 1917).
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Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #146 on: August 13, 2006, 05:56:04 AM »
It is very a pity to me of their children. I think, they had to go through divorce of their parents. I think, it it was hard. I think, it was heavy to them to have attitudes with the father and mother after their divorce.

But there is one small delicate moment: In my opinion, they cannot be prince and princess, and still also to be their imperial highneses. Therefore their daughter can be only mademoiselle Caroline Bonaparte, and its brother Jean Christophe can be only mesier.

Still also there is one small "but". I did not like that photo on which they have been represented together. They were near to that picture which represents crowning Napoleon. There Caroline was in white shirt , and its brother Jean Christophe was in a white shirt. There they smiled. Whether it is necessary to understand, what Caroline and Jean Christophe very much are proud of the ancestor?

There is still also one small remark. Caroline and Jean Christophe is Bourbons on mother.

But let's recollect, to whom successors of the Spanish and Norwegian throne are married? But let's ask to itself a question. Whom the Swedish princesses if their father married the girl of very modest origin because the then successor of the Swedish throne has grown fond of this girl can marry? Unless we do not see, with what generosity royal persons divide the blue blood with simple people?
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Offline britt.25

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #147 on: August 13, 2006, 07:31:58 AM »
Hello Dmitry,

Yes, in some aspects I understand your problem with the Bonaoparte family, because they had only two emperors and were such a short dynasty with usurpatoric elements, somewhere that´s right, also to consider that the Bourbons (Capetiens) had reigned much more time in the french history, but we have to accept the history of France and what has happened. Napoleon really made a lot of bad things, too, especially the many wars against other nations or murdering of people, something that would become even worse if you take a look at the modern dictators in the 20 th century (but that would be a completely other topic), but concerning Napoleon we must also see that the french wanted him as emperor, he put the crown himself on his head, but not without the french people welcoming it. They were not satisfied with the Bourbon kings anymore, as the royal family was not very interested in the poor people, but lived well at the court without seing that the folk was suffering and so on. Dictators are almost always children of a revolution, and a revolution does not come from nothing, that can be seen in France and also later in other countries. Yes, Napoleon made many things that were not just, but cruel, but at least he made a lot for France to modernize it, like inventing the Code Napoleon and the fixing of the rights of the revolution and so on. When we look at similar people, we often have this kind of Phenomen in the history: At the beginning there are good ames in origin, but somewhere there comes a point where people like Napoleon went to far.
Now back to Charles napoleon and his family: We will have to accept their imperial title, even when there were only two emperors from the family,  as this dynasty did not have the chance to reign more time in history, but this family reigned, and so we have to accept it. Everyone has to decide how he sees it, noone can or should make another person like or dislike Napoleon, it is one´s own decision.
Concerning Charles I can only repeat that he is a man like other people, and does not behave himself like a "proud aristocrate" at all. He has this title, but he is so different from Napoleon, they are not to compare at all, he is the contrary of a Bonapartist, even if he has an interest in his ancestry and has written two books about these topics. But if you use expressions like "it´s a shame and a comedy that he let himself call imperial Highness" you are going to far, as this man is really very serious and interested in doing something good for his country in my view. He got the title from his ansistors even if he for himself would surely never
behave like a Napoleon I. ;) he once said in the interview that I sent to you "We cannot escape our history"
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline britt.25

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #148 on: August 13, 2006, 01:20:35 PM »
It is very a pity to me of their children. I think, they had to go through divorce of their parents. I think, it it was hard. I think, it was heavy to them to have attitudes with the father and mother after their divorce.

But there is one small delicate moment: In my opinion, they cannot be prince and princess, and still also to be their imperial highneses. Therefore their daughter can be only mademoiselle Caroline Bonaparte, and its brother Jean Christophe can be only mesier.

Still also there is one small "but". I did not like that photo on which they have been represented together. They were near to that picture which represents crowning Napoleon. There Caroline was in white shirt , and its brother Jean Christophe was in a white shirt. There they smiled. Whether it is necessary to understand, what Caroline and Jean Christophe very much are proud of the ancestor?

There is still also one small remark. Caroline and Jean Christophe is Bourbons on mother.

But let's recollect, to whom successors of the Spanish and Norwegian throne are married? But let's ask to itself a question. Whom the Swedish princesses if their father married the girl of very modest origin because the then successor of the Swedish throne has grown fond of this girl can marry? Unless we do not see, with what generosity royal persons divide the blue blood with simple people?



Here you seem to express the same opinion like on the thread "House of Bonaparte news", you think, Jean Christophe and his sister Caroline do not have a right on their titles? Did I understand this correctly? The problem is that you might not like their title and might not accept it, but the imperial family has its own tradition, and Jean Christophe is the official heir of the dynasty, already now, before his death Louis Napoleon, the father of the present prince Charles Napoleon (not: Charles Bonaparte, but Charles Napoleon !!), made his grandson Jean Christophe the official heir of his family, he decided to give his title and the heritage directly to Jean C. and not to his father, it might have been a consequense of the difficulties between the conservative old Louis and his very different son Charles. So Jean Christophe is not Monsieur or something, but the heir of the Bonaparte family, the official Prince Napoléon (not: Bonaparte or something!) Caroline is also not any princess Bonaparte, not a " Mademoiselle", but Princess Napoléon. It´s clear that she will marry in a royal house later, and then she gets another title, too and will not be the heir of the Bonapartes (as a girl). Why do you see such a problem in the titles? Is it again because of the "usurpation" of their ansistor Napoleon I ? I seems to me like that. But as I said before: He have to accept history like it is.
And now about your comment on the picture with Princess Caroline and Prince Jean Christophe, which I personally do not dislike.  From such an official press picture is it hardly to guess what they really think about their ansistor Napoleon, because this might have been an official photography (I suppose at any celebration on Napoleon´s crowing or something, which they had to attend as napoleonic heirs) and there they certainly have to smile. If they have also critic arguements concerning Napoleon I or if they are simply and only proud of being his heir, we do not know and cannot judge, as we do not know them. Everything about this is only speculation without any facts or details about the people.
Your sentences with  the Swedish princesses I did not really understand in this connection. Sorry.
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
« Reply #149 on: August 13, 2006, 11:28:41 PM »
Dear Britta!
 I am very glad, that you have answered me.
But I shall be still glad to answer you.
I do not have any intentions to hate this family. I quite neutrally concern to this family. Please, excuse me for my sharp expressions concerning this family. To simply me unusually and hard to name their imperial highneses and princes. I knew simply long time about only two French emperors. Simply I had very negative opinion on their activity. But still also I did not know, that there are successors of the French emperors. Still also I consider, that this family unique. I think, there can not be second such family, which would rise from modest Corsican peasants on such fantastic height, which would become imperial family, which would establish related communications with many royal families (and even with Bourbons!). I think, second such family already never will be. You write to me, that Charles Napoleon the person very serious and responsible which wishes to do something for the native island Corsica, wishes to be the Corsican representative in the European parliament, wishes to be mayor of city Fontainebleau who was a residence of emperor Napoleon earlier, and nowadays is the Parisian suburb. You write to me, that its political ambitions are limited to it. You write to me, that Charles Napoleon does not want the third French empire, that it simply cares of preservation of the napoleonic inheritance. Whether correctly I have understood you?

Dear Britta!

I live in Russia which experiences very heavy period of the history. The miracle as Russia survives after doubtful communistic experiments and bloody dictators is simple. Lenin and Stalin have brought Russia and to Russian people so a lot of bad, that we simply do not understand, how we have survived. Secretaries general of Communist party of Soviet Union are their successors. Yeltsin and Putin were members of Communist party earlier and served in Committee of State security of Soviet Union. Only they and their followers have in due time felt the end of Soviet Union and have turned from communists to democrats. Unfortunately, they are closer to the state treasury. They have not given Russian people anything good and are now enriched due to export of raw material from Russia. I would not wish any people to receive such governors, as Lenin and Stalin. But I would not like to see Russian politicians who in something are similar on two French emperors.


This is Drako Malfoy. This is my most favorite hero.