Author Topic: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles  (Read 62015 times)

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Offline ALEXEI_P

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Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
« on: March 21, 2006, 06:21:09 AM »
Most esteemed members of the forum,

I have audited the forum for quite some time, but only recently become a member. (this is ony my third posting).  I greatly enjoy your lively discussions and seemingly infinite knowledge of Imperial Russia.

Something has bothered me for many years and I would like your input on the subject.

Does it bother any/many of you when authors use CZAR, CZARINA, ETC.?

It annoys and drives me to distraction when authors use "CZAR".

In my family and the ROCA--TSAR (in Roman-English print) and even Russian pronunciation it was always thus--TSAR-(soft 'ts'--not a harsh 'Z').

CZAR is a rough and common rendering in the pronunciation and incorrect. It is just vulgarization, akin to the European affectation, Romanov vs Romanoff.

Tsar is not a direct derivitive of the "Roman"- Caesar- as far as I have been led to believe and thus the spelling and pronunciation are wrong.  It - CZAR- is incorrect any annoying.  I think a standardization should be set, and what better place to start than here among fervent Imperial Russophiles?

Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.

My apologies if I come across as a snob, but this has bothered me for some time.

Spasiba,

Alexis

David_Pritchard

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2006, 12:55:50 PM »
Dear Aleksei,

I always use the Russian word Tsar instead of the Polish word Czar as it is more appropriate for most of the topics. If I were writing on a Polish history forum, I am certain that I would refer to Aleksander I as Czar of Poland but on this forum he is always Tsar of Poland.

David


P.S. ROCA = Russian Orthodox Church in America
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by David_Pritchard »

Offline Belochka

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2006, 05:54:06 PM »
To be more precise there were no Tsars in Imperial Russia after October 1721.

That ancient title was superseeded when Peter I was styled Imperator by Senate Decree. Henceforth all rulers of the Russian Empire were either:

Imperator or Imperatritsa (when a female was in power)

Tsar' can be used informally and has entered the language as a general definition.

e.g. Nikolai II was titled:

"Imperator i Samoderjhets Vserossiyskii ..."

or in English translation:

Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias ....

;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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David_Pritchard

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2006, 07:13:03 PM »
To be ever more precise there were no Tsars of Imperial Russia but there were Tsars of some of the nations that comprised the Russian Empire.

For example, Emperor Nikolai II was the Tsar of Poland, the Tsar of Kazan, the Tsar of Astrakhan, the Tsar of Siberia, the Tsar of Cherson and the Tsar of Georgia.  

David

Offline Belochka

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2006, 09:09:12 PM »
The various designations Tsar' Kazanskii etc including Velikii Knyaz' Smolenskii and Naslednik of Norway; form part of a long string of historic appellations that formed H.I.M.'s full title.

Rather than expressing the full title, in documents and such like, for the sake of simplicity, the last Head of State of Imperial Russia was:


Bozhiyu Milostiyu Mi Nikolai II,  
Imperator i Samoderjhets Vserossiyskii,
Tsar' Pol'skii, Velikii Knyaz' Finlyandskii  
i prochaya, i prochaya, i prochaya.


By God's Grace We Nikolai II,
Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias,
Tsar of Poland, Grand Duke of Finland,
and so on, and so on, and so on.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Helen

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2006, 03:37:53 AM »
Quote
P.S. ROCA = Russian Orthodox Church in America

??? I may be mistaken, but isn't it the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad?
"The Correspondence of the Empress Alexandra of Russia with Ernst Ludwig and Eleonore, Grand Duke and Duchess of Hesse. 1878-1916"  -  http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_
"Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig and Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in Italy - 1893"

Offline Belochka

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2006, 03:52:09 AM »
Quote
??? I may be mistaken, but isn't it the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad?


Perhaps you are thinking about ROCOR = Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia?


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Offline Helen

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2006, 05:57:15 AM »
Yes, I am. I have seen ROCA used as an abbreviation for the "Russian Orthodox Church Abroad" or "Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia" many times in various meetings and newsletters, always referring to the world at large, and more specifically to churches in Western Europe, but not specifically to America.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Helen »
"The Correspondence of the Empress Alexandra of Russia with Ernst Ludwig and Eleonore, Grand Duke and Duchess of Hesse. 1878-1916"  -  http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_
"Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig and Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in Italy - 1893"

Offline Belochka

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2006, 06:42:13 AM »
Quote
Yes, I am. I have seen ROCA used as an abbreviation for the "Russian Orthodox Church Abroad" or "Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia" many times in various meetings and newsletters, always referring to the world at large, and more specifically to churches in Western Europe, but not specifically to America.


Pity about those newsletters. Had they been in Russian, then there would not have been any confusion.

The word for "outside of Russia" in ROCOR = Zarubezhnaya.
 ;)



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Offline Helen

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2006, 07:43:45 AM »
 :) You're right; that would certainly eliminate confusion on this point. I am afraid, though, it would at the same time introduce all kinds of other problems. The Byzantine Rite of Uniate and Orthodox Churches in Western Europe attracts many Western people who do not speak Russian well and who prefer to read about the affairs of their communities in their mother tongues. It is good, though, to be more aware of the fact that the A may stand for Abroad in the texts that I come across personally, but is interpreted in a different way by many other people. Or perhaps I should say: by most other people. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Helen »
"The Correspondence of the Empress Alexandra of Russia with Ernst Ludwig and Eleonore, Grand Duke and Duchess of Hesse. 1878-1916"  -  http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_
"Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig and Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in Italy - 1893"

Offline Mie

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2006, 07:53:39 AM »
On my english essey once where I mentioned Tsar, I wroe it tsar, but the teatcher said it was wrong... :( But when everyone can underestand tsar as written tsar what's the different? :( I can not even complay it to my teacher cose she left. Maybe she left couse she was not that good at teaching.. ::)

Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2006, 08:07:13 AM »
Quote
On my english essey once where I mentioned Tsar, I wroe it tsar, but the teatcher said it was wrong... :( But when everyone can underestand tsar as written tsar what's the different? :( I can not even complay it to my teacher cose she left. Maybe she left couse she was not that good at teaching.. ::)

Haha!

All I have to say on the subject is that 9 times out of 10 in the NY Times crossword puzzle, it's tsar not czar. ;D ;D

Offline Ortino

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2006, 05:29:44 PM »
Quote
On my english essey once where I mentioned Tsar, I wroe it tsar, but the teatcher said it was wrong... :( But when everyone can underestand tsar as written tsar what's the different? :( I can not even complay it to my teacher cose she left. Maybe she left couse she was not that good at teaching.. ::)


I had a situation like that once. A history teacher of mine used to circle the word "tsar" on my paper every time I spelled it like that. I happened to have a Romanov book with me one day and I showed her five or six places where the word "tsar" was used and how it was supposed to be written--she gave me a look and walked away. She nevered spelled it "czar" again.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Ortino »

Offline Belochka

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2006, 05:34:20 PM »
Quote

I had a situation like that once. A history teacher of mine used to circle the word "tsar" on my paper every time I spelled it like that. I happened to have a Romanov book with me one day and I showed her five or six places were the word "tsar" was used and how it was spelt--she gave me a look and walked away. She nevered spelled it "czar" again.  ;)


Well done Ortino,

Now the next lesson for that history teacher is to inform them that "Emperor " is the correct title!
 ;)


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Offline Caleb

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2006, 09:50:17 PM »
I read that Nicholas II prefferred the title "tsar" as opposed to "emperor". I also get the feeling that "czar" was easier to write & pronounce as opposed to "tsar" by those used to English. I also know that English-speakers have a tendency to say things phonetically (my brother said it was the same in China) example Peking vs. Beijing, Sian vs. Xi'an, or Soochow vs. Suzhou. Peking can be written that way, but due to the Chinese "accent" they pronounce it Beijing. It's the issue of the Wade-Giles system vs. the more accurate Pinyin system.