Author Topic: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles  (Read 62386 times)

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Offline Belochka

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2006, 11:24:26 PM »
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I read that Nicholas II prefferred the title "tsar" as opposed to "emperor".


That is quite possible Caleb.

Prefering to live in Tsarskoe Selo certainly had distinctive imperial appeal for Nikolai II.
 ;)


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Offline Fay

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2006, 08:01:47 AM »
David, may I, as a Polish, point out that Alexander I was King of Poland, not the Czar, because our country was at the time, as it had been decided during the Viennese Congress, The Congress Kingdom of Poland.

Offline Grand Duchess Marishka

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2006, 06:39:15 PM »
I hope I offend none in saying this, but the term Tsar, spelled like so, is more eye appealing nonetheless. I have often thought that the word spelled czar isn't so ellaborate. But that's just me.

Peace.

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2006, 09:38:43 PM »
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I also get the feeling that "czar" was easier to write & pronounce as opposed to "tsar" by those used to English.

Dear Caleb,

I believe that you are correct that the Polish word CZAR is more understandable to an English speaker than the Russian word [ch1062][ch1040][ch1056][ch1068] which consists of one letter that does not exist in English, [ch1062] (TS), two that do, A (A), and P (R) and one that is not really a letter but a denoter of emphasis, [ch1068]. Another factor is that the Polish word had been adopted by the French language, a language into which many official Imperial Court documents were translated by the Court itself, giving the impression that CZAR was the official translation.

David





Offline Tania+

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The Tsar's Titles
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2006, 04:49:48 PM »
I had wondered what the Tsar's titles was and found the following information.

The Tsar's complete title is as follows:

Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, Tsar of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod, Kazan, Astrakhan, of Poland, Siberia, of Touric Chersonese, of Georgia, Lord of Pskov, Grand Duke of Smolensk, of Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia and Finland, Prince of Estonia, Livonia, Courland and Semigalia, Somogotia, Bialstock, Karelia, Tver, Yougouria, Perm, Viatka, Bulgaria, and other countries; Lord and Grand Duke of Lower Novgorod, of Chernigov, Riazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslav, Belozero, Oudoria, Obduria, Condia, Vitebsk, Mstislav and all the region of the North, Lord and Sovereign of the countries of Iveria, Cartalinia, Kabardinia, and the provinces of Armenia, Sovereign of the Circassian Princes and the Mountain Princes, Lord of Turkestan, Heir of Norway, Duke of Schleswig Holstein, of Storman, of the Ditmars, and of Oldenbourg, etc.

Tatiana+
TatianaA


David_Pritchard

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Re: The Tsar's Titles
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2006, 11:09:07 PM »
Both Emperors Nikolai II and Aleksander III used the same full titles. Other emperors and empresses had various additions and subtractions to their list of territories.

Tania has posted a very good list of the full titles of Emperor Nikolai II, but I do see a few things that need to be adjusted, it could be that she simply omitted a word when typing the list, or transposed a word as I have done this when I have typed out the full titles. My changes and additions will be in bold type.

Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod, Tsar of Kazan, Tsar of Astrakhan, Tsar of Poland, Tsar of Siberia, Tsar of Touric-Cherson, Tsar of Georgia, Lord of Pskov, Grand Duke of Smolensk, of Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia and Finland, Prince of Estland, Livland, Courland and Semigalia, Somogotia, Bialstock, Karelia, Tver, Yougouria, Perm, Viatka, Bulgaria, and other countries; Lord and Grand Duke of Lower Novgorod, of Chernigov, Riazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslav, Belozero, Oudoria, Obduria, Condia, Vitebsk, Mstislav and all the region of the North, Lord and Sovereign of the countries of Iveria, Kartali, Kabardinia, and the provinces of Armenia, Sovereign of the Circassian Princes and the Mountain Princes, Lord of Turkestan, Heir of Norway, Duke of Schleswig Holstein, of Stormarn, of the Ditmarschen and of Oldenbourg, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.


1. No Tsar of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod but rather Emperor and Autocrat of these four cities.

2. The word Tsar is repeated in front of the names of each of the territories of Kazan, Astrakhan, Poland, Siberia, Touric-Cherson, Georgia.

3. The Russians use the words Estland and Livland in the titles. Estland has not always been equal to Estonia but rather what is today Northern Estonia. Livonia includes Southern Estonia and Northern and Eastern Latvia, Livland is a smaller territory.

4. I really prefer the word Kartali to the word Cartalinia. This is the Principality that the Princes Bagration-Moukhransky once ruled.

5. The names of these German duchies are spelled Stormarn and Ditmarschen.

6. The titles of Princes, Kings and Emperors are usually ended in et cetera (always three times) or ec. (no 't', always three times). The Russians end the Imperial titles with [ch1080] [ch1087][ch1088][ch1086][ch1095][ch1072][ch1103], [ch1080] [ch1087][ch1088][ch1086][ch1095][ch1072][ch1103], [ch1080] [ch1087][ch1088][ch1086][ch1095][ch1072][ch1103]. Meaning et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.


David Pritchard




David_Pritchard

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Re: The Tsar's Titles
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2006, 04:26:13 PM »
In my effort to list all the provinces, cities, etc., I forgot to add the official introduction to the emperor's titles to my post.

God's Enlightened and Merciful Mediator, We Nikolai the Second, Emperor and Autocrat....................

I hope that my translation is accurate as I had great difficulty finding the exact words in my dictionary.


David

TheAce1918

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2006, 10:55:55 PM »
I use both, but more times I use TSAR.  It makes more respectful sense and it seems to be more common in the literary pieces about the subject.  

Offline Johnny

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2006, 09:17:06 PM »
Most esteemed members of the forum,


Tsar is not a direct derivitive of the "Roman"- Caesar- as far as I have been led to believe and thus the spelling and pronunciation are wrong.  It - CZAR- is incorrect any annoying.  I think a standardization should be set, and what better place to start than here among fervent Imperial Russophiles?


Alexei,
You were not misled. Tsar is the shortened form of Tsezar. The longer form often appeared in official documents. Tsezarevich nad Tsezarevna were also very common, being invariably used under all the official portraits of the Royal children. Czar is the actual spelling of the word in Polish. But Tsar is a mere English transliteration of the Russian word. The same word is spelled as Zar in Italian and German and pronounced approximately the same as Tsar. In fact spelled in Cyrillic both Caesar and Tsezar will look and sound identical, which means the Russians did not distinguish between the two. And since either Czar or Tsar or Zar are simply attempts to spell the Russian word with the Roman alphabet, I think they are all equally valid, for neither one is the way the actual Russian word is spelled.
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Offline dunya

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2007, 12:46:17 PM »
I dont think Nikolay II ever used the title ''emperor'' he always did go by Tsar.

You saying; Tsar is a  English translation of the Russian word , I always pronounced it as ''Zar'' as English is not being my native lingo.
It is quite different in Russian though, its true that the first letter is ''Ts'' ; however pronounciation of the letter is not ''Z'' its  more like''che''. I dont know if I could explain it, the whole word  sounds more like ''Char'' ...

Offline Johnny

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2007, 01:40:40 PM »
I dont think Nikolay II ever used the title ''emperor'' he always did go by Tsar.

You saying; Tsar is a  English translation of the Russian word , I always pronounced it as ''Zar'' as English is not being my native lingo.
It is quite different in Russian though, its true that the first letter is ''Ts'' ; however pronounciation of the letter is not ''Z'' its  more like''che''. I dont know if I could explain it, the whole word  sounds more like ''Char'' ...
I never said the word was pronounced like "zar". I know exactly how the word is pronounced in Russian. It's only spelled "ZAR" in Italian because in that language the letter Z is pronounced TS. But I agree with you that a lot of English speaking people mispronounce Tsar as Zar.
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Offline Binky

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2007, 02:55:09 PM »
They should all think about pizza.  No body calls it peeza do they.  But its hard to say it right if you leave the pee off at the start.  So if people could just think about a pizzar and leave off the pee they could say his name more easy.

Offline dunya

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2007, 10:44:42 PM »
Hey Johnny,

I didnt say ''you'' said the word is pronounced like "zar". Its just T and  S together, in the beginning of the word is not common in latin alphabet , so its normal that people not knowing how to pronounce it, right ? ''Zar'' sounds more likely in English I guess. It's kind of like saying Nicholas instead of good old ''Nikolay''.

Best wishes.

Offline Johnny

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2007, 06:20:01 PM »
Hey Johnny,

I didnt say ''you'' said the word is pronounced like "zar". Its just T and  S together, in the beginning of the word is not common in latin alphabet , so its normal that people not knowing how to pronounce it, right ? ''Zar'' sounds more likely in English I guess. It's kind of like saying Nicholas instead of good old ''Nikolay''.

Best wishes.

I see your point.

cheers
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2007, 03:41:24 PM »
I don't recall why but I know that it was around the time Lenin took power,  the Bolsheviks used   "Czar"  which  was  to show disrespect toward the Royal Family.  The old  loyal groups and those who wished to show respect to the Romanovs used the word "Tsar".     I've noticed in the older books some loyalists called Lenin the "Bloody Czar" .....    I've never seen Lenin labeled "Tzar".  So,  maybe, it's roots are something  just from that time period and was understood by the "Whites" and "Reds".   

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