Author Topic: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles  (Read 62428 times)

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Offline Binky

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2007, 06:57:23 AM »
I wish Nicholas liked to be called emperor so we could all call him that and not worry about disrespecting him by spelling the other name the wrong way.  I know how Nicholas feels because it hurts my feelings when people put an e in my name when theres' really not one there.

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2007, 09:21:30 AM »
I would imagine he welcomed the term Emperor as much as Tsar. 

Offline Georgiy

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2007, 10:04:42 PM »
I really can't see that it would have bothered him at all, whatever way it was spelt in English. In Russian after all it is царь, the letter ц taking care of that 'ts' sound (or 'cz' sound however you wish to portray it using English letters...)

Offline Nadezhda Edvardovna

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2007, 02:31:51 PM »
What does the word look like in Russian?  Perhaps the best road to take is to stop writing in English, write the word in Russian, and then resume English, as is so frequently done with famous French words.  Pax, N.

Offline Yelena Aleksandrovna

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Re: The Tsar's Titles
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2009, 03:10:01 PM »
What about to use "emperor"? I read that it was a correct form to call the tsar, speacially after the
XVII or XVIII century

Offline Tina Laroche

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Re: The Tsar's Titles
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2009, 03:31:42 PM »
What about to use "emperor"? I read that it was a correct form to call the tsar, speacially after the
XVII or XVIII century

FA once posted this in another thread - on the same subject...

Nicholas was, absolutely speaking, Emperor, and Alexandra was Empress.  Tsar/Tsarina were formal, former terms, often used, but not proper.

I quote from the "Statesman's Guide to Russia" published by the Imperial Court Minister in 1896, re: proper address of the Sovereign:
The title of the Russian Monarch is Emperor and Imperial Majesty.  Originally the Russian Sovereigns bore the title of grand dukes. With the uniting of Russia under the dominion of Moscow, the title of Tsar began to be used, and was, definitely adopted by Ivan IV in 1547. This remained the title of the Russian Sovereigns until 1721. In 1721, by the peace of Nishtadt, the Great Northern war, carried on so successfully by Peter the Great, was concluded. In celebration of this event, the Senat and Synod resolved t beg Peter I to accept the titles of Emperor, Great, and Father of his Country. A supreme Ukas was issued to that effect, on November 11, 1721, which gave rise to a protest on the part of many European states, as it placed the Russian Sovereign on the same level with the Emperor of Germany, the sole Monarch of that rank then existing. First to acknowledge the new title were Prussia, the Netherlands and Sweden, last - Poland in 1764. 
http://alexanderpalace.org/palace/Statesman.html

Offline Yelena Aleksandrovna

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Re: The Tsar's Titles
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2009, 02:05:51 PM »
Thank you very much for the information Tina!

Offline richard_1990

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Re: The Tsar's Titles
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2009, 07:08:03 AM »
What about to use "emperor"? I read that it was a correct form to call the tsar, speacially after the
XVII or XVIII century

FA once posted this in another thread - on the same subject...

Nicholas was, absolutely speaking, Emperor, and Alexandra was Empress.  Tsar/Tsarina were formal, former terms, often used, but not proper.

I quote from the "Statesman's Guide to Russia" published by the Imperial Court Minister in 1896, re: proper address of the Sovereign:
The title of the Russian Monarch is Emperor and Imperial Majesty.  Originally the Russian Sovereigns bore the title of grand dukes. With the uniting of Russia under the dominion of Moscow, the title of Tsar began to be used, and was, definitely adopted by Ivan IV in 1547. This remained the title of the Russian Sovereigns until 1721. In 1721, by the peace of Nishtadt, the Great Northern war, carried on so successfully by Peter the Great, was concluded. In celebration of this event, the Senat and Synod resolved t beg Peter I to accept the titles of Emperor, Great, and Father of his Country. A supreme Ukas was issued to that effect, on November 11, 1721, which gave rise to a protest on the part of many European states, as it placed the Russian Sovereign on the same level with the Emperor of Germany, the sole Monarch of that rank then existing. First to acknowledge the new title were Prussia, the Netherlands and Sweden, last - Poland in 1764. 
http://alexanderpalace.org/palace/Statesman.html
That's interesting Tina. Thank you. Do you think if a constitutional monarch (Romanov's) was established in Russia that the European Royal houses would object to them claiming the title of Emperor/Empress?

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2009, 09:05:21 AM »
Quote
I also get the feeling that "czar" was easier to write & pronounce as opposed to "tsar" by those used to English.

Dear Caleb,

I believe that you are correct that the Polish word CZAR is more understandable to an English speaker than the Russian word [ch1062][ch1040][ch1056][ch1068] which consists of one letter that does not exist in English, [ch1062] (TS), two that do, A (A), and P (R) and one that is not really a letter but a denoter of emphasis, [ch1068]. Another factor is that the Polish word had been adopted by the French language, a language into which many official Imperial Court documents were translated by the Court itself, giving the impression that CZAR was the official translation.
The spelling czar is often identified as Polish, as is done here, but is that really correct? царь is today spelled car in Polish, the pronunciation being /tsar/. "Czar" would be pronounced /char/ in modern Polish.

Polish spelling might have changed, but a rudimentary look around on the net seems to point to "czar" being an outdated Hungarian spelling. (Though nowadays it's cár also in Hungarian.) Because Croatia for centuries was a part of the Hungarian kingdom, the spelling convention cz=[ts] also found its way into Croatian and its neighbouring language Slovene (but are now outdated there too, it's car nowadays in both languages.). And bingo: The guy who actually coined the spelling "czar", the Austrian diplomat Sigismund von Herberstein, in his Rerum Moscoviticarum Commentarii was from the Duchy of Carniola (nowadays in Slovenia) and was bilingual German-Slovenian. He evidently used a contemporary Slovene-Croatian-Hungarian spelling convention when transscribing the term for the Muscovite ruler.

Offline Vecchiolarry

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2009, 09:59:45 AM »
Hi,

Personally, I like and use the word "Czar" for the Russian Emperor(s) whenever the need arises...
It seems more to link with its origin "Caesar" for me and its derivative "Kaiser" too....

Also, here in Alberta, there is a town named 'Czar' with a large Russian and smaller Ukranian population;  and they are the ones who named it in the 1880's...

Larry

Anastasia Spalko

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2009, 11:06:35 AM »
What does the word look like in Russian?  Perhaps the best road to take is to stop writing in English, write the word in Russian, and then resume English, as is so frequently done with famous French words.  Pax, N.

That actually wouldn't be a bad idea.  However, I think "tsar" is much closer to how it's actually spelled in Russian.

I'm confused.  If the emperors liked "impereator" so much, why was the national anthem "Bozhe Tsarya Khrani," or "God Save the Tsar" in English?

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2009, 04:36:49 PM »
Quote
I also get the feeling that "czar" was easier to write & pronounce as opposed to "tsar" by those used to English.

Dear Caleb,

I believe that you are correct that the Polish word CZAR is more understandable to an English speaker than the Russian word [ch1062][ch1040][ch1056][ch1068] which consists of one letter that does not exist in English, [ch1062] (TS), two that do, A (A), and P (R) and one that is not really a letter but a denoter of emphasis, [ch1068]. Another factor is that the Polish word had been adopted by the French language, a language into which many official Imperial Court documents were translated by the Court itself, giving the impression that CZAR was the official translation.
The spelling czar is often identified as Polish, as is done here, but is that really correct? царь is today spelled car in Polish, the pronunciation being /tsar/. "Czar" would be pronounced /char/ in modern Polish.

Polish spelling might have changed, but a rudimentary look around on the net seems to point to "czar" being an outdated Hungarian spelling. (Though nowadays it's cár also in Hungarian.) Because Croatia for centuries was a part of the Hungarian kingdom, the spelling convention cz=[ts] also found its way into Croatian and its neighbouring language Slovene (but are now outdated there too, it's car nowadays in both languages.). And bingo: The guy who actually coined the spelling "czar", the Austrian diplomat Sigismund von Herberstein, in his Rerum Moscoviticarum Commentarii was from the Duchy of Carniola (nowadays in Slovenia) and was bilingual German-Slovenian. He evidently used a contemporary Slovene-Croatian-Hungarian spelling convention when transscribing the term for the Muscovite ruler.

You may well be correct about the Hungarian origins of this spelling, but Slovene at this time was barely a written language at all and I seriously doubt that this word featured frequently when it was. I think the "cz" digraph for "ts" may come from early German texts German originally; in Slovenian (later) it denoted the letter now written simply "c" with a hacek, which sounds like the Polish cz.

Conversely, perhaps the spelling "czar" was supposed to denote the bi-syllablic word? (as in Tse-sar)Though this seems unlikely unless the "c" as rendering of "ts" was common at that time, which I doubt.

PS I think I know you under another screen name elsewhere ! :-)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 04:41:21 PM by Janet Ashton »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2009, 05:00:48 PM »
I believe Nicholas II's title included "Tsar" of ______ and    "Emperor" of All the Russias.   Does anyone have is full title?

AGRBear 

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2009, 06:44:48 PM »
I was informed that  the title is found at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar#Full_style_of_Russian_Sovereigns

which is true, however, it is only in part and not the complete title.

>>We, ------ by the grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod, Tsar of Kazan, Tsar of Astrakhan, Tsar of Poland, Tsar of Siberia, Tsar of Tauric Chersonesos, Tsar of Georgia, Lord of Pskov, and Grand Duke of Smolensk, Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia, and Finland, Prince of Estonia, Livonia, Courland and Semigalia, Samogitia, Belostok, Karelia, Tver, Yugra, Perm, Vyatka, Bulgaria and other territories; Lord and Grand Duke of Nizhni Novgorod, Sovereign of Chernigov, Ryazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Beloozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Kondia, Vitebsk, Mstislavl, and all northern territories; Sovereign of Iveria, Kartalinia, and the Kabardinian lands and Armenian territories - hereditary Lord and Ruler of the Circassians and Mountain Princes and others; Lord of Turkestan, Heir of Norway, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein, Stormarn, Dithmarschen, Oldenburg, and so forth, and so forth, and so forth."<<
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 06:50:01 PM by AGRBear »
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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2009, 07:20:12 PM »
Interesting about the German and tse-tsar theories, Janet. At least it was most unlikely Polish:
You may well be correct about the Hungarian origins of this spelling,
In the English Wikipedia article about the Hungarian alphabet I actually found it mentioned that cz is an older spelling of c, retained in some surnames like Czukor (aka Cukor).

Quote
PS I think I know you under another screen name elsewhere ! :-)
I too know you from Etoile / Unofficial Royalty! I got a bit bored with the folks there. Most of them don't know that Wikipedia exists in other languages than English....

Researching the word tsar, it dawned on me that it has was in actual, official use for the Russian head of state for a relatively short period of time (174 years.) But yet it is deeply ingrained in Russian sayings, folk tales and mythology etc. Was it so well known to people because it was used in the Bible and in church about the Biblical kings?