Author Topic: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles  (Read 62019 times)

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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: The Tsar's Titles
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2009, 06:40:46 AM »
Prince of Estland, Livland, Courland and Semigalia [..] Karelia
Interesting that the Russian Emperor was prince of these territories, which were duchies when they were ruled by the Swedes and Germans.

It just shows that князь can be said to cover both West European "prince" and "duke", this is of course relevant for the grand duke vs. grand prince translation debate.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 06:43:36 AM by Naslednik Norvezhskiy »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: The Tsar's Titles
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2010, 09:23:20 PM »
Instead of arguing about whether Великий князь should be rendered Grand Duke or Grand Prince (as seen above the terms do overlap to some extent), we should rather discuss whether Император и Самодержец Всероссийский should be rendered Empeor and Autocrat of all the Russias, Emperor and Autocrat of all (the) Russians or All-Russian Emperor and Autocrat? (The latter being the literal meaning in Russian.)

I know that the Imperial Government used empereur et autocrate de toutes les Russies and "Empeor and Autocrat of all the Russias" as the official translation in diplomatic handbooks etc., so it's merely an academic argument. But the fact is that all three translations have been used at some point, in Latin, German, French or English. See this learned discussion on alt.talk.royalty about Peter III's Latin title for some interesting background.

If boys, girls and apple pie can be All-American, a former German reactionary association Alldeutscher Verband and the Swedish premier football league Allsvenskan, why can't Nicholas II be All-Russian Emperor and Autocrat?

« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 09:37:29 PM by R┼ôrik »

Offline rosieposie

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Re: The Tsar's Titles
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2010, 03:26:16 AM »
All I can say is ShamWOW! On his titles.  I did hear a part of it on Rasputin (Alan Rickman version) when Alexei (Freddy Finlay) rattles it off his title.  It is such a mouthful.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 03:32:00 AM by rosieposie »
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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: The Tsar's Titles
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2010, 04:45:32 AM »
All I can say is ShamWOW! On his titles.  I did hear a part of it on Rasputin (Alan Rickman version) when Alexei (Freddy Finlay) rattles it off his title.  It is such a mouthful.
Actually, when you consider how long titles (of pretence) many German princelings sported, I am surprised that the ruler of the largest empire on Earth didn't have an even longer title!

BTW did Nicholas' titles specifically cover all of the territory of the Russian Empire? What about Kamchatka, for example? Was it covered by the "Tsardom of Siberia", even though the actual Khanate of Siberia never extended that far? Or did "Sovereign of all the North Country" take care of that?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 04:51:36 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline AnastasiaNikolaevna

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2010, 07:35:19 PM »
Sorry, I didn't know where to put this so I decided to put it on Nicholas's thread...I hope this is OK!

Just wondering, how do YOU spell Tsar? I usually spell it TSAR, but I've also seen it spelled CZAR.

I know there really isn't a right or wrong way because Russian isn't like English, but just wondering...
You are filled with anguish
For the suffering of others
And no one's grief
Has ever passed you by
You are relentless
Only towards yourself
Forever cold and pitiless
But only if you could look upon
Your Own sadness From a distance
Oh, how you would pity yourself
How sadly you would we

Offline TimM

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2010, 02:02:23 AM »
I've seen it spelled both ways.  I guess either one is acceptable.
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RomanovsFan4Ever

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2010, 05:28:26 AM »
It was already discussed before, take a look here: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=6628.0

By the way, I always prefer to spell TSAR.

Offline AnastasiaNikolaevna

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Re: TSAR VS CZAR
« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2010, 07:00:21 AM »
Me, too. Thanks!
You are filled with anguish
For the suffering of others
And no one's grief
Has ever passed you by
You are relentless
Only towards yourself
Forever cold and pitiless
But only if you could look upon
Your Own sadness From a distance
Oh, how you would pity yourself
How sadly you would we

Offline TimM

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Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2010, 07:11:44 PM »
It comes from the word Caesar, as does the German Kaiser.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2010, 07:08:16 PM »
...[in part....]

I quote from the "Statesman's Guide to Russia" published by the Imperial Court Minister in 1896, re: proper address of the Sovereign:
The title of the Russian Monarch is Emperor and Imperial Majesty.  Originally the Russian Sovereigns bore the title of grand dukes. With the uniting of Russia under the dominion of Moscow, the title of Tsar began to be used, and was, definitely adopted by Ivan IV in 1547. This remained the title of the Russian Sovereigns until 1721. In 1721, by the peace of Nishtadt, the Great Northern war, carried on so successfully by Peter the Great, was concluded. In celebration of this event, the Senat and Synod resolved t beg Peter I to accept the titles of Emperor, Great, and Father of his Country. A supreme Ukas was issued to that effect, on November 11, 1721, which gave rise to a protest on the part of many European states, as it placed the Russian Sovereign on the same level with the Emperor of Germany, the sole Monarch of that rank then existing. First to acknowledge the new title were Prussia, the Netherlands and Sweden, last - Poland in 1764.  
http://alexanderpalace.org/palace/Statesman.html

There needs to be a tiny little correction in this statement.   Peter the Great rose above the Prussian King Frederick Wilhelm I.  

The Prussian Kings remained Kings until  King Wilhelm I   was  proclaimed Emperor [Kaiser] of Germany in the Hall of Mirrors at Versailles on  18 Jan 1871.  

AGRBear
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 07:24:50 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2010, 08:09:58 PM »
 The Hohenzollerns remained kings of Prussian, after the creation of  the German Empire.   The same as the  kings of Bavaria, Wurtemburg, Saxony, etc.
 The last Kaiser abdicated only as Emperor of Germany,  but not as King of Prussia.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2010, 02:37:05 PM »
My wording was off.  
Thanks for making it clear that the Emperors of Germany, also,   held the title of King of Prussia.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 02:40:08 PM by AGRBear »
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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2010, 01:30:14 PM »
Lol, I wonder if Dostoyevsky was inspired by the Tsar's titles when he wrote in "Crime and Punishment" that "за весь Шлезвиг-Гольштейн не отдаст", i.e. that Dounia Raskolnikova would not give up her inner freedom to Luzhin for "all Schleswig-Holstein"!

Oh, now I see.... it was published in 1866! Well that, explains a lot!
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 01:38:05 PM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2010, 12:17:21 PM »
It's funny that there is a lot of discussion about whether the ц in царь should be rendered ts or cz, while the fact that the most exotic part of the word to non-Russian ears is the palatalisation of the r, i.e. the pronunciation is [tsarʲ], hence the soft sign ь. To pronounce it correctly, you must lift your tongue towards the hard palate of your mouth while pronouncing the (rolled) r.

Offline Griae

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Re: Tsar vs. Czar and Nicholas's Full Titles
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2010, 05:16:44 AM »
In Dutch, the word is always written as tsaar. I always use this word when I teach my pupils about Russia. I explain that it is the Russian word for emperor, coming from the same 'Caesar' as the German 'Kaiser' or the Dutch 'keizer'.
The kinds really like the for them foreign words. Tsaar, Tsarevich etc. It gives an extra flavour to this topic, gives it something special.


kind regards, Bettina