Author Topic: The Paleys  (Read 360363 times)

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Sitka

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #375 on: October 14, 2009, 07:49:14 PM »
where in the world did jean noel liaut hear that Vladimir was spoiled?  i just find it ridiculous, i've read a lot of his poetry and i find it frankly stupid that anyone would say Vladimir was spoiled, his poems are very humble imo and showing of a personality that is the opposite of arrogant.

I agree, a lot of attention was lavished upon him as he is his parents' love child and he does enjoy employing his little sisters in his theatrical pursuits (and they happily did) but I don't think he was spoiled. When he entered the Corps des Pages at the age of 11 (not 13 or 14), he was at first shy because his Russian wasn't good due to his being raised in France. However, after he overcame his language problem he socialized quite well with his fellow cadets.

GD Maria said this about Vladimir in her memoir and I quote: "when he was still a baby, there was something indefinable about him that set him apart from the others......"
"when he was a child, in fact, I considered him a nuisance, affected and priggish. But later I understood that he was simply a being older than his years lost in the milieu to which his age assigned him."

Offline Sara Araújo

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #376 on: October 15, 2009, 12:18:40 PM »
Some of Vladimir's music (as well as that of other Romanovs) will be performed in Moscow!

http://www.theroyalforums.com/12324-sound-of-the-dynasty-music-written-by-romanovs-to-be-performed-for-the-first-time

It's a very interesting idea, I think!  :)

Again... as soon as I get hold of my book about Natalie, I'll post the quote. It was just something that I read and struck me, but I'm not an expert to to say if he was spoiled or not. I'm just quoting...  :-[
Natalie Paley website:

http://nataliepaley.webs.com/

Offline Sara Araújo

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #377 on: October 15, 2009, 03:48:37 PM »
And I've just found a picture I'd never seen before of Grand Duke Paul:



Along with further information about Princess Paley's relationship with Empress Alexandra, which indeed didn't seem to be very colourful. This is an excerpt from "The Court of the Last Tsar" by Greg King:

"Empress Alexandra dictated further humiliation: the countess could be presented to members of the Romanov family, but not formally through their official suites, as ordinary aristocratic women were - only in private and only by her husband. She also required, when visiting the imperial palaces, to leave her card rather than sign her name in the guest-book, as were other ladies of the court. Such deliberated slights left Paul Alexandrovich angry. He latter spoke of the many "insults at the hands of my Imperial relatives and their satellites, mostly men and women of social degeneracy and referred to his uncle, the emperor [a little error as he was his nephew] as one of the principal persecutors of myself and my family", terming him "a political imbecile". 

Which leads me to the conclusion that uncle and nephew were not in very good terms either...  :D
Natalie Paley website:

http://nataliepaley.webs.com/

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #378 on: October 16, 2009, 04:02:59 PM »
And I've just found a picture I'd never seen before of Grand Duke Paul:



Along with further information about Princess Paley's relationship with Empress Alexandra, which indeed didn't seem to be very colourful. This is an excerpt from "The Court of the Last Tsar" by Greg King:

"Empress Alexandra dictated further humiliation: the countess could be presented to members of the Romanov family, but not formally through their official suites, as ordinary aristocratic women were - only in private and only by her husband. She also required, when visiting the imperial palaces, to leave her card rather than sign her name in the guest-book, as were other ladies of the court. Such deliberated slights left Paul Alexandrovich angry. He latter spoke of the many "insults at the hands of my Imperial relatives and their satellites, mostly men and women of social degeneracy and referred to his uncle, the emperor [a little error as he was his nephew] as one of the principal persecutors of myself and my family", terming him "a political imbecile". 

Which leads me to the conclusion that uncle and nephew were not in very good terms either...  :D

Not so. I think Nicholas' relationship with his Uncle Paul was fairly complex. I'm quite sure that PA was angry and annoyed with Imperial protocol and his niece by marriage's slights to his wife. On the other hand, Nicholas was more respectful of the "older generation" than many of his contemporaries, and he was very fond of Paul's son, Dmitri, bringing him into his own household to be raised.

Politically, Paul was much more liberal than the Emperor and indeed kept urging Nicholas right up until the end to grant a more democratic government.

The nuances of this relationship were lost on the Bolsheviks, who murdered the Grand Duke at his namesake fortress, Peter and Paul.

Offline ashanti01

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #379 on: October 25, 2009, 11:04:28 AM »

Offline Sara Araújo

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #380 on: November 07, 2009, 07:14:31 AM »
Those are trully wonderful pictures! I'd never seen them before! Thanks for sharing!  :)

So, I finally got my book on Natalie Paley back! So here's the quote I'd mentioned:

"We could, however, be surprised with the path given to Vladimir's studies, since nothing in him could predict such a turn. It's necessary to analyse in this choice the claw of Grand Duke Paul, whom, on the opposite of his wife, «was far remote from the qualities that gave his son all his value.» and «his sightly bohemian tendencies left him surprised, but perhaps also worried.»
Time would make him right. Bodia, separated from his family, far from the adoration of his mother and sisters, he gained contact with other boys of his age and the impeccable discipline of the Corps des Pages.
He became more natural, more spontaneous, but never neglected his different passions.
Natalie Paley website:

http://nataliepaley.webs.com/

Offline ashanti01

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #381 on: November 08, 2009, 03:53:31 AM »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #382 on: November 29, 2009, 09:14:21 AM »
I just love the name Pistohlkors! It might interest some of you to know that it means "pistol cross" in Swedish, hence the arms:


One of those funny Swedish ornamental surnames.

Does anybody have a picture of the Paley arms? (To be found in Часть 20 Общего гербовника дворянских родов Всероссийской империи, стр. 1 = Part 20 of the General Armorial of Noble Families of the All-Russian Empire, page 1)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 09:36:20 AM by Naslednik Norvezhskiy »

Offline newfan

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #383 on: November 29, 2009, 10:06:14 PM »
HI ..The book on Nathalie Paley whats the title?is it in english?,,,I only saw one on wiki and its this one:Jean-Noël Liaut, "Natalie Paley: La princesse dechirée", Paris: Filipacchi, 1996 ISBN 2-85018-295-8
thanks

Offline Sara Araújo

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #384 on: November 30, 2009, 07:09:55 AM »
Yes, that's the one I have...  ;)

I think that is the only one entirely dedicated to her, but there is a great selection of books where she is mentioned.
Natalie Paley website:

http://nataliepaley.webs.com/

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #385 on: November 30, 2009, 07:16:08 AM »
Lovely potos, thank you ashanti. Pity they are not dated.
Grief is the price we pay for love.

FREE PALESTINE.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #386 on: November 30, 2009, 09:21:29 AM »
On the subject of the Pistolkors coat-of-arms, which came first, the name or the arms?

In English and Scottish heraldry, there is a concept of 'canting' arms, where the devices on the arms are a visual pun on the name. For example, a person named Stagg would include a stag or stag's head in his arms. There are lots of other examples.

However, it has been suggested that in some cases, before surnames became fully established, the coat-of-arms predated the surname and a person changed his name to fit his arms. The example I know is that of Lyon. The earliest Lyon arms show a lion rampant azure on argent, with only very minor differences from the better-known arms of Bruce. As it is unlikely that anybody in the 14th century would adopt Bruce-type arms unless there was a close family tie, the theory is that the earliest known Lyon (Sir John Lyon, who married one of Robert II's daughters) was a Bruce who changed his name.

Ann

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #387 on: December 06, 2009, 07:52:10 PM »
Yes, the Pistolkors arms are absolutely canting.
On the subject of the Pistolkors coat-of-arms, which came first, the name or the arms?
I think they came at the same time - in 1645, when Queen Kristina of Sweden ennobled the Lieutenant Jöran Olufsson of the Karelian Cavalry. He, like so many Scandinavians ennobled by letters patent, obviously emulated the "armorially derived surname" of the ancient Scandinavian noble families like Vasa, Oxenstierna, Rosenkrantz, Gyldenstierna, Gedde, Banér, Bielke, Sparre, Stenbock, Galtung, Natt och Dag, Leijonhuvud etc. But simultaneously he needed arms to derive that surname from!

In Scandinavia (particularly Norway and Denmark) where so many people have farm names as surname, territorial surnames (or titles) are not much used by the nobility, in stark contrast to both Britain, but especially France and Germany.  But unlike in Russia (and Britain), any surname can't be seen as noble, they are usually either foreign (mostly German, e.g. Wedell, Von Essen) or "ornamental surnames" derived or pseudo-derived from arms, like Pistohlkors. But in Sweden ornamental surnames have crept further down than just the nobility: A farmer from Lindtorp (= Linden Croft) would for instance combine one part of the name of his ancestral hamlet with an "ornament" like gren (= branch) and get the name Lindgren.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #388 on: December 07, 2009, 03:30:25 AM »
Thanks for this interesting info on the Pistolkors arms and surname - and Swedish arms and surnames in general.

Ann

Offline Sara Araújo

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Re: The Paleys
« Reply #389 on: December 26, 2009, 07:09:45 AM »
Natalie's dance with Maurice Chevalier
Natalie Paley website:

http://nataliepaley.webs.com/