Author Topic: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier  (Read 106112 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #420 on: June 06, 2008, 10:17:39 AM »
For some reason my post didn't post correctly.
See my next post which is a responce to Annie.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 10:20:06 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #421 on: June 06, 2008, 10:33:30 AM »


I have a copy of Wilton's book and it was not written in German but published here in the USA.  If AA was FS, who could NOT read or write English, then she needed to have someone else read it for her then translate to her the contents of  THE LAST DAYS of THE ROMANOVS.

The book does not mention that it was published in any other language.

Anyone who knew the Romanovs knew several languages, and could have told her.

Bear: Yes, anyone could have told her but who?  That's the question and we don't have any proof, only speculations.

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I believe by the time the book was selling in the stores,  AA had already told the nurse at Dalldorf that she was GD Anastasia.

No the book was out in 1920. The nurse story cannot be taken as hard fact because there really is no proof other than ONE person's word that it ever even happened. When she talked to the paper, she said it happened in 1922, then later tried to back and say it was supposed to be 1921 but the paper got it wrong. This was just her excuse when she realized she needed to predate the open AN claim. I put no value in the nurse story so it's really not even a  factor. AA never got the idea to be a GD until Clara P. showed her that pic in 1922, and it was Tatiana.

Bear: We've confirmed the book was out in 1920 after AA jumped into the canal. 
The nurse was  a wittness at AA's trial and told the court what she knew about AA.

As for the date of 1922 vs 1921,  we know very well that newspapers can and do make errors.  I believe she explained why she remembered it as being 1921.

You may dismiss the nurses' testimony, but let's say for the sake of this discussion that AA did tell her about the jewelry and the play in 1921.   I doubt the nurse was part of the suggested conspiracy to prove AA was GD Anatasia.  More than likely she was someone being used without her knowledge by the suggested conspiritors who hoped to prove AA was GD Anatasia.


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Since AA was not visited by "outsiders" until 1922,  her source had to have been someone she met before Feb. of 1920.

No, anyone she knew after she started talking about it would work, because she didn't talk until she had information.

Bear: I'm repeating myself here but it stresses what I'm trying to establish: This is why she had to have known all that she needed to know before she jumped into the canal...

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To add to this,  if AA had read the book without any assissants, then this proves she knew English well enough to read a 428 page book.

So she may not have read it but got the info from a supporter. What we were going on here was not only that the book was out there but that Gilliard himself knew the info and could possibly have told her.

Bear: If AA had a supportor (fellow conspirator) then who could it have been before Feb of 1920? 

After she was released, did she continue using the same person?

We don't know.  Do we?

Could she have done all of this on her own between 17 July 1918 to Feb. of 1920?   If  AA was FS then I don't see how it was possible. 


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It's late.   If I have time tomorrow I'll look for the exact quotes Annie mentioned about the "jewelry" sewn in the under garments and the plays, unless Annie would be so kind to do so for us.  If not,  could you tell me the page numbers.

Thanks.

AGRBear

Yawn. I'm very tired and it's 3 hours later for me than it is you, and I sure don't feel like looking for it but I know if I don't dig it out right now you'll accuse me of being 'fact free', lying, making up, etc., so here you go:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=YxIEAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22last+days+of+the+romanovs%22+wilton&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=BMFaH5UE9U&sig=3KGBlrxbGlfIR01Q5lWMBIPIJIE#PPA30,M1

Page 30

Chapter Examination of Gilliard

I can't copy and paste since it's pdf so here:



I can't find Gibbes right now and I don't remember if it was in his examination or some other part of the book. I can look later when I have time, in the meantime the link is there for anyone else who wants to look. I am not in school, I'm not at work, and I don't have a deadline for my assignment.

edit forgot about the plays will look later, again it's right there in the link for anyone else to search Gilliard's and Gibbe's chapters are very early in the book

and while I certainly do not have time to dig through them, it's very possible Bux's books mention it as well, since she had to have known about it too.
[/quote]


Bear: THE LAST DAYS OF THE ROMANOVS  is an interesting read and tells you alot about Wilton and his own attitudes.

I'll take a quick look this morning to find the other quote.  If I can't find it this morning,  I will do so later, and let you know where you can find it.

I don't have an answer about Buxhoveden's book.  Why don't you take a look and let us know if she did or didn't,  Annie.

I'd like to make this perfectly clear:  All of this continues to be merely speculation.   Neither Annie nor I have any proof that AA was part of a conspiracy before or after she jumped into the canal. 


AGRBear
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 10:55:32 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #422 on: June 06, 2008, 11:09:14 AM »
There was more than one nurse who spoke about AA.

This is one of my earlier posts in this thread when we were talking about AA's ability to speak different languages.

Peter Kurth, ANATASIA, p. 10:

>>The nures at Dalldorf had never doubted that Fraulein Unbekannt was Russian.  It wasn't just her "Eastern" accent or the fact that she spoke foreign languages in her sleep,  "She spoke Russian like a native," said Erna Bucholz, a former German teacher who had lived in Russia,  "not like a foreigner who has learned Russian."  Nurse Bucholz had been the first to take care of Fraulein Unbekannt at Dalldorf...<<

It appears that Nurse Bucholz lived in Russia and was acquainted with the Russian language.

I wonderd by what Bucholz meant that AA spoke Russian like a native even though she does add that she thought AA hadn't learned Russian as a new language. 

I do not know enough about Russian but I assume there is a difference between the Russian the peasants spoke and the Royals.

All this is clearified in her testimony:

p. 10

>>During the nightshift I had a special opportunity to converse with her, as generally she could not sleep... I told her one evening that I cam from Russia, talked about the cathedral in Moscow [St. Masil's] and spoke about Russian matters in general.  She nodded and said she knew all this... I asked her if she could speak Russian.  She answered.  "Yes," whereupon we began to converse in Russian.  She did not speak it faulitly.  Rather, she used whole, complete, connected sentences without any impediments...  I absolutely got the imprssion that the patient was completely conversant in the Russian language, russian affairs and expecially Russian military matters.<<

So, this was in the summer of 1920.

When did FS learn how to speak Russian well enough to fool a German-Russian.

There is a difference between a German going into Russia to teach German than a German-Russian who lived in Russia, who was educated in Russia where she  gain a teacher's certifiate in Russia and taught German.

When Bucholz talks about the Russian language she used words such as "connected setences without impediments".

I know it's difficult for many of you to understand why there would be so many people in an asylum who were aware of the Russian language.  Remember, there were 50,000 Russians who fled Russia and were in and around Berlin by 1920.  A portion of them were German-Russians like Bucholz.

Making blanket statements that Bucholz wasn't qualified to know the difference between someone speaking Russian like a peasant or like an educated person doesn't make it truth.

Sure, someone could have paid Bucholz to lie, but,  I have never seen evidence that this is true.

I can only go by the weight of the evidence provided and since this was spoken in court,  I weight this is evidence which is quite believeable.

So,  when and from whom  did FS learn proper Russian before she jumped into the Berlin canal because she knew it by the time Bucholz spoke to her in the summer of 1920?

I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. Nor do I believe we need to tangle up fact with misinformation to prove our case.

AGRBear



I'm not placing it here to prove what languages AA spoke,  only to provide more evidence that AA, if she was FS,  knew Russian before the summer of 1920.

Again,  I am assuming that this nurse is also telling us the truth about her observations of AA.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 11:12:35 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #423 on: June 06, 2008, 12:37:40 PM »

Bear: Yes, anyone could have told her but who?  That's the question and we don't have any proof, only speculations.

We will NEVER have 'proof', since no one ever admitted to it and now they're all dead. The fact remains, there were a half million Russian emigres in Berlin in 1920, many had known the family, several people came to see AA. The window of opportunity is there and very large.
Add to this the fact that we KNOW THAT AA WAS FS AND NOT AN so therefore she HAD to have been told by someone else. Please don't let this drift back into the abyss of question of identity, I thought this time we were going to go on the basis that AA is FS.

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Bear: We've confirmed the book was out in 1920 after AA jumped into the canal. 
The nurse was  a wittness at AA's trial and told the court what she knew about AA.

As for the date of 1922 vs 1921,  we know very well that newspapers can and do make errors.  I believe she explained why she remembered it as being 1921.

You may dismiss the nurses' testimony, but let's say for the sake of this discussion that AA did tell her about the jewelry and the play in 1921.   I doubt the nurse was part of the suggested conspiracy to prove AA was GD Anatasia.  More than likely she was someone being used without her knowledge by the suggested conspiritors who hoped to prove AA was GD Anatasia.

I don't believe the nurse, or that the paper made a mistake (any more than I believe the 'mistakes' in FOTR were the editor's fault) She may well have been being used by someone else, but I don't believe it was without her knowledge. I believe she was deliberately supposed to play the part of adding a chapter into the story that didn't exist- that AA 'came out' as "AN" before she was 'Tatiana' to Clara p. I DO NOT ACCEPT THIS AT ALL! Think about it, it makes no sense! Once her claim was public everyone came running.If she had said it earlier, they'd have come earlier. No sorry I don't believe the old 'she was scared and the nurse promised not to tell' theory, because for one, if she had been AN and been 'scared' she never would have said anything, and two, SHE WAS NOT AN so she wouldn't have said it.

My personal view is that the incident either never happened, or happened in 1922.

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I'd like to make this perfectly clear:  All of this continues to be merely speculation.   Neither Annie nor I have any proof that AA was part of a conspiracy before or after she jumped into the canal.  [/font]

AGRBear

Yes it is because that's all we have.

I want to make it clear that I do not and have never believed that AA knew anything before she jumped in the canal. I believe she didn't begin her claim until Clara showed her the pics in 1922.

I do not believe anyone preplanned to set her up to pretend to be AN (a la the Anastasia cartoon), what I think is that several people used it to their own advantage and jumped at the opportunity AFTER the idea was already out there (thanks to Clara P)

I will be back with more quotes from the book.

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #424 on: June 06, 2008, 12:58:48 PM »
Plays

Page 90, Examination of Kobylinsky:

..."Sometimes in the evening the Emperor used to read aloud while everyone listened. Sometimes plays were staged, usually French or English. Tea was served at eight o'clock and a conversation would take place until eleven but never later than twelve o'clock. After that everybody retired...

"Medicines"

Page 288-289

Here we must record a circumstance which was destined to play an important part in the detection of the murders at Ekaterinburg. Before separating, it had been understood between mother and daughters that they would take measures to safeguard the jewels that had been brought with them from Tsarskoe, worth not less than a million gold rubles.

A letter from the maid Demidova in Ekaterinburg gave the necessary indications. The Grand Duchesses were to 'dispose of the "medicines" as had been agreed'. This meant that the jewels had to be secreted into their clothing in such a way as to escape search (Nicholas, Alexandra and Maria had been searched very thoroughly and brutally) For several days, the Grand Duchesses and their trusted servants worked at the task, sewing up the jewels in their bodices, their hats, and even inside their buttons.

Offline halen

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #425 on: June 06, 2008, 01:16:26 PM »
Annie, now that you have mentioned FORT, have you read the book yet?

Louise
There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

When he shall die
Take him and cut him out into stars
And he shall make the face of heaven so fine
That all the world will be in love with night,

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #426 on: June 06, 2008, 02:43:02 PM »
Since you, halen, have seen fit to block my personal messages, (though I never tried to send you one before just now) apparently you are attempting to drag me into a mess on the open forum. Some of you enjoy baiting me, and your refusal to talk to me in private proves this is your interest. If you refuse my PMs, I have nothing to say to you, and will ignore you from here on out.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 02:45:23 PM by Annie »

Offline halen

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #427 on: June 06, 2008, 06:22:35 PM »
It is an honor to be on your ignore list. Thank you.

Louise
There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

When he shall die
Take him and cut him out into stars
And he shall make the face of heaven so fine
That all the world will be in love with night,

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #428 on: June 06, 2008, 06:49:06 PM »
I actually don't have an ignore list, and have never blocked anyone's PMs. I just don't speak to people who enjoy baiting me on the forum to get a reaction instead of talking it out in private.

Okay bear, what have you got? Have you found anything else? If you look over to the side of the book pages on that link there's a very useful search feature where you can look up words and phrases. It's very helpful and saves you having to dig through all those pages when you can't recall which chapter you need.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 06:52:54 PM by Annie »

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #429 on: June 06, 2008, 09:57:10 PM »
It is incumbent to point out that Annie  has not read Fate of the Romanovs during the entire time she has made statements about the content of the book. The reader can then determine how seriously her points need to be considered.
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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #430 on: June 06, 2008, 11:32:12 PM »
The name of the thread is "Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier." I will not be a participant in attempts to drag the OT garbage from the FOTR thread over here.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 11:35:13 PM by Annie »

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #431 on: June 06, 2008, 11:39:48 PM »
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I don't believe the nurse, or that the paper made a mistake (any more than I believe the 'mistakes' in FOTR were the editor's fault)

Then stop taking gratuitous swipes, and this thread will stay on topic. Frankly, after the stunt you pulled for the past four years, I am amazed you have the effrontery to mention the book at all. No, scratch that. After that stunt, nothing surprises me.
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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #432 on: June 06, 2008, 11:44:58 PM »


Then stop taking gratuitous swipes,

RIGHT BACK AT YA, not only to me but Alixz, Herr Kaiser and anyone else you feel like bullying. Why any mod would allow you to continue to terrorize this forum is unfathomable.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #433 on: June 06, 2008, 11:48:18 PM »
I suppose out of charity, the same charity they displayed in allowing a liar and a bully --- that would be you, btw --- to pollute the threads with your nasty hysteria. The ways of the mods are inscrutable indeed. However, if you take gratuitous swipes, I will be there to contradict you. Deal with it.
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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #434 on: June 07, 2008, 11:23:57 AM »
I do NOT lie, I have even admitted that I didn't read the damn book- do you know how easy it would be to just say I did? But I'm no liar! Of course it suits you well to attack my credibility in order to trash my rep to anyone who reads my posts, just as any criminal rubs out his adversary. You have also accused me of other things I never did, such as misquoting Massie (you couldn't tell where my quote of him stopped and my commentary started even though I put his in italics for that reason), you accused me once of editing a post days later when there was no 'edited by' on it and we were by then unable to edit after an hour, and was it you or Tsarfan who accused me of turning you into Lisa for the negative 'sarcastic' comment in the thread I hadn't even read? You are either paranoid or trying to frame me up. I am no liar, I am too honest, which is probably why I get myself in trouble so much. Bully? No, I'm very nice, it's you and Tsarfan who are bullies, like mean kids, and I am not your only victim. Just look at how you stalked me to this thread to bring up a fight in a different thread! You and Tsarfan did the same thing in the 'how do you put someone on ignore' thread even though no names were mentioned. Your actions would get you banned or at least reprimanded on any other board on the internet but apparently you have some kind of hold on the mods here and they let you run free to insult and harass and drag old fights into new threads and take them OT.  How sad that with all the money you guys have you can't think of anything more entertaining to do.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 11:47:34 AM by Annie »