Author Topic: Princess Diana  (Read 261773 times)

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Offline Martyn

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #540 on: August 31, 2007, 11:01:00 AM »
Good grief Herr!!!The way you are talking anyone would think you were present!!!;D ;D

Do you have to bring up the Harry story? It's disrespectful to Diana, who I believe was not having an affair at that point, and he's clearly a Spencer! :)

Well, i was not present and if I had been....i'd have much to add to this discussion!!! And with much greater sizzle!!!

I wasn't trying to disrespect Diana, but my comment (made by tons of others) was simply to underscore the point that bearing a child or two has limited or no relation to the true strength or weakness of a marriage.

That's very true Herrkaiser.  Comment has been made in the past about the 'heir and the spare', another antiquated Edwardian notion.  Another equally anachronistic notion that Leslie mentions in her book is that it was not entriely unusual, or unexpected to find children differing in looks to their siblings amongst an aristocratic brood, which may or may not have been the results of extra-marital dalliances.  In these circumstances, these children were accepted and brought up exactly the same as the others. Naturally I am not suggesting that this is the case with Harry, as it is more likely that the Spencer genes kicked in more forcibly when he was conceived......

Charles knew that he had to do his duty and create progeny, quite possibly thinking that once he had done so, he might be able to juggle wife and mistress more happily........
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV

dmitri

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #541 on: August 31, 2007, 11:05:25 AM »
well very hard to imagine bedding the wife and loving the mistress would have provided much pleasure for Charles in the long run

dancingbarefoot

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #542 on: August 31, 2007, 12:35:16 PM »
I believe that no it wouldn't have.

Simply because Charles was raised to believe that he, as the heir, was the star and any other way was unacceptable. He was raised under the influence of his Granny and the other ladies of the court and so while Diana was needy and "worshipped" him, her outshining him wasn't what he wanted.

Charles in his way, is very much like Wallis's David in that he's a child in a man's body and would more than likely have flunked any marriage to any woman who was not ready to "Nanny"  him.

However, having said that ...

If they had of gotten to know each other better, if perhaps Diana was older than she was when she married him ... who knows what they could have done together.

The luxury of playing the "what if" game.

helenazar

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #543 on: September 01, 2007, 10:41:37 AM »
I was watching the Larry King special about Pss Diana yesterday and some of the guests who have inside knowledge had an interesting insight. They said that the boys (William and Harry) are very fond of Camilla and have been for a long time. They realize that Camilla makes their father happy, and if he is happy, they are happy. On the other hand, they also witnessed the relationship between their parents, while they were together, and they knew that they were making each other miserable, and they realized that their mother was not the easiest person to deal with and that the blame did not solely lie with their father. The boys have accepted Camilla with open arms. They don't see Camilla as a "homewrecker" and they don't blame her for the failure of their parents' marriage (as children do more often than not). And if anyone had the right to do this, it would be William and Harry. So if this is not the case, what right does anyone else has to judge and to blame? These boys are the ones who were actually in the middle of it all and who were effected by this directly. And they are prefectly fine with Camilla and with the fact that their father married her, so why are so many others who had nothing to do with this situation, who don't even know these people, are not ok with this? Something to think about, hmm....?

NAAOTMA

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #544 on: September 01, 2007, 12:11:06 PM »
Actually, if this family were private people with no official roles leading private lives down the lane in Surrey, people might still think it nervy and tacky of the mistress turned second wife attending the memorial service for the deceased first wife whose life was made totally miserable for many years with "three of us in this marriage"...but in this case it was a televised public service attended by the Royal Family of England in their official roles.

Does anyone think that Princess Anne would have been there if this had been a strictly private event? No, she would have been out walking her lurchers because she had no use for Diana in life much less in death.  As for Camilla, who knicknamed Diana "Barbie" and "Mad Cow" (that in reference to Charles' supporters calling the Princess "barking mad") the graceful thing would have been to thank the Princes for their kind invitation but say that out of respect for their mother's memory and the reality of past history that she would not be attending. The Princes are old enough to come to gripes with the reality of the situation if it had to be explained to them.

The Queen did not support Camillla attending, or Camillla would have been there. Perhaps the Princes even issued the invitation to Camilla with the understanding that she would gracefully bow out. That is not unheard of in these situations. Neither William or Harry released any statement saying that they insisted Camilla be there, which they also easily could have done when the growing negative clamor about Camilla's attendence just kept getting louder.

To say "if William and Harry don't have a problem, why does anyone else?" is a bit simplistic given the history of the Diana/Charles/Camilla triangle and the emotional devastation Charles and his mistress caused the Princess of Wales in her lifetime. As far as it being the business of anyone besides William and Harry, the Royal Family learned the hard way ten years ago that public opinion did factor in during the week following Diana's death in terms of the Royal Family's response to Diana's death. Someone even made a movie about that starring Helen Mirren. .

helenazar

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #545 on: September 01, 2007, 01:06:44 PM »
Ummm... NAAOTMA.... I think you posted in the wrong thread, we're talking about "Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?", not about attendance to the Diana memorial...
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 01:08:18 PM by Helen_A »

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #546 on: September 01, 2007, 01:25:45 PM »
Well it all hinges on what one reads and what one chooses to believe.   We will never know the truth.   The best thing would be for everyone to believe that out of the heartbreak of their parents' marriage breakdown, and the tragedy of their mother's death, the Windsor princes are now at the heart of a happy family life. 

If you believe unicorns graze at the foot of your garden, that's fine.

Earlier this weeks I read that Harry cannot stand Camilla.   (If I can find the quote, I will reproduce it).   William is more tolerant and more accepting of the situation and has a relaxed relationship with Camilla.      However, both boys are content to know their father is happy - an attitude of mind with which these boys have been blessed - a general attitude to life which one can only attribute to the example of their late mother.

As was witnessed at the actual funeral of their mother, these boys, from infancy, have been thoroughly trained in the technique of never betraying emotion.   Witnessing the amount of air kissing that went on at the memorial service for Diana yesterday, is appears, certainly in public, they are all - Windsors and Windsors, Spencers and Spencers, Windsors and Spencers - best friends.   The reality as well we all know, is very different.

tsaria

« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 01:27:54 PM by tsaria »

helenazar

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #547 on: September 01, 2007, 01:41:11 PM »
But again, none of us were there in the middle of this, none of us know these people personally, and we have no idea what is really the case, and therefore can't really judge. At the very least, it seems that both William and Harry have accepted Camilla as long as she makes their father happy. Their mother never did make him happy, which is why I feel that in the end Camilla was irrelevant in the break up of the marriage... I am not saying that Charles was the perfect partner, and that he wasn't selfish, etc, he in fact was, but the bottom line was, they never really made each other happy, so their marriage would not have worked, even if Camilla was not in the picture. To put all the blame on Camilla, is oversimlifying it.

BTW, I am reading THE DIANA CHRONICLES, and I just learned that before Diana, Charles actually proposed to Amanda Knatchbull, who turned him down. The author feels that Amanda realized that she just wouldn't be a good match for Charles and decided against it... If only Diana realized it too.

Offline Grace

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #548 on: September 01, 2007, 04:40:03 PM »
Isn't it a bit simplistic to say the marriage ended because they didn't make each other 'happy'?  It sounds a bit childish after a couple has made a lifelong commitment to God and country in front of the world, don't you think?  They may not have been all that well matched but if there had only been the two of them - without any distractions from outside people - they probably could have committed to staying together while pursuing their own interests, friends etc.  If Charles didn't have his comfort woman to run to, he would have to have worked a lot harder on his relationship with Diana, in my opinion.  She would have been less inclined to turn to other men for affection also.

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #549 on: September 01, 2007, 05:30:42 PM »
Grace - so far as I am concerned, you have summed up the subject of this thread perfectly.

tsaria

NAAOTMA

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #550 on: September 01, 2007, 06:29:45 PM »
Helen, ummm, I posted in response to your post recounting the Larry King interview last night, which I also watched. The loud voiced royal reporter Richard-what's-his-name declared at the start of the program that as he viewed the service that what was clear to him was that Camilla's presence would have been totally inappropriate.

As for the current "one big happy blended Charles and Camila family" spin manufactured for public consumption---it certainly boils down to whatever one chooses to believe. For a fair number of people, it is right up there with the same spin doctors now proclaiming that Charles and Camilla are eternal beloveds, fated and destined, which many people do not believe for one minute.

As for Amanda Knatchbull, she perhaps was wise enough to intuit that there would always be women on the side for Charles and she was not prepared to be his broodmare/appropriate wife on that basis. That appears to be the reason Anna Wallace dumped him.

If Charles had gone into his marriage with just two people in it, his life with Diana could have been quite different than what transpired. They had the bonds of their beloved children, their roles as Prince and Princess of Wales, a mutual love of opera and classical music and at the start both were very interested in the garden at Highgrove. Diana had no problem with country life when she was happy, as Tina Brown points out. Many successful and fulfilled marriages have evolved out of much less when both parties gave their relationship with their spouse full attention.

dmitri

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #551 on: September 01, 2007, 11:12:26 PM »
I agree with Tsaria, Grace and NAOTMAA. Charles obviously lied on his wedding day. He had no intention of honouring his wedding vows which makes people think he would take the same view of the work of a Coronation oath.  He has been an enormous disappointment.

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #552 on: September 02, 2007, 04:37:56 AM »
OUCH!!!!!!   

That is the trouble with a liar and/or a deceiver whether they be lowly 'commoner' or royal personnage  - when rumbled, there really isn't much chance of redemption - in human terms at least.   To be able to do it once - especially on such a scale - does not bode well for the future.   Forgive, perhaps - forget, impossible.

tsaria

Offline jehan

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #553 on: September 02, 2007, 06:09:23 PM »
I agree with Tsaria, Grace and NAOTMAA. Charles obviously lied on his wedding day. He had no intention of honouring his wedding vows which makes people think he would take the same view of the work of a Coronation oath.  He has been an enormous disappointment.

Do you know that?  Has he told you what was in his heart?  I don't think any of us know what his real intentions were- he may very well have intended to honour his wedding vows and start a new life. There are many sources that say this was the case.  But things didn't work out that way.  Remember they BOTH broke their vows, and Diana did have affairs  with married men as well as single ones- did she check with their wives first?

I don't think any of us can know the  innermost thoughts and intentions of other people we have never met or met only superficially.  Or pass judgment on them.

Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in. 
(leonard Cohen)

Mari

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Re: Had there been no 'Camilla' - would the Wales marriage have survived?
« Reply #554 on: September 03, 2007, 02:24:37 AM »
Quote
I don't think any of us know what his real intentions were- he may very well have intended to honour his wedding vows and start a new life

The proposal to Diana from Charles was at Camilla's House. She was vetted by Camilla or approved of. He went down the aisle in a pair of cuff links given to him by Camilla with his and Camilla's initials on them. Diana said in tapes that he spent very little time alone with her on the Honeymoon and chose to have them on a Yacht surrounded by People. I think its pretty clear how his interests lay and his intentions.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 02:31:26 AM by Mari »