Princess Diana

[Margarita Markovna]

I think in their life stories there are some similarities, yet some differences. I'm not an expert on Sissi, having only read one book about her ( there seem not be many good books about her in English), but my take is the following.The marrying at a young age, tragic death, and unhappy marriage are true. Both were also famous beauties were restless and never seemed happy, in her later years Sissi moved from place to place, and some how, that might have been Princess Diana's fate too, had she lived longer. She seemed to be sort of drifting after her divorce, but one difference with Sissi, is she had more purpose, so she might not have become the way Sissi was, never finding a home, just traveling from one place to another. Sissi was very vain, and I don't think Princess Diana was.

 Princess Diana did have an eating disorder, and some people said Sissi did too, but a completely different one than that of Princess Diana. Sissi was said to starve herself to remain young and thin. One difference they had was as mothers. Sissi wasn't maternal, at all, whereas Princess Diana was, and identified herself as such. Both their husband didn't understand them, and they both died younger ( what was Sissi's age at death?), in the last years of a century, Sissi was murdered/ asssinated, and Princess Diana wasn't although some have said that she was. The worlds they inhabited were different. But, Sissi in later years barely lived in Austria I believe, and I think she died abroad, as did Princess Diana, another thing in common. Sissi was way more self interested than Princess Diana, but then Sissi had more of an aimless life, perhaps. I don't know much else, but that is my opinion.

Isn't it pretty much accepted that Sissi had an eating disorder? I thought she had anorexia. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Greenowl]

Although the diagnosis of anorexia did not exist at that time, I think it is quite clear from all accounts that Empress Elisabeth suffered from some extreme form of eating disorder, probably anorexia.

She was considerably older than Princess Diana when she died (just three and a half months short of her 61st. Birthday). Another difference is that Empress Elisabeth was extremely intellectual and devoted a great deal of time to the study of languages, becoming fluent in Hungarian as well as both classical and modern Greek. She also wrote poetry and was something of an authority on the works of her hero, Heinrich Heine. Her knowledge of Heine was such that when three "unknown" poems were discovered long after Heine's death, she was one of the "experts" who was asked to read the poems and give an opinion as to whether they were authentic. Her assessment agreed with that of other acknowledged Heine experts and still holds true today. She adored animals, especially horses and dogs, and was a very accomplished (and fanatical) rider. She seems to have loved Franz-Joseph in her own way....or if love is not the correct term, then at least she felt guilty about her treatment of him and bore him no ill-will, and thus introduced him to Katherina Schratt and encouraged the relationship, in spite of the lack of approval on the part of her "one and only", Marie-Valerie. Despite having neglected her two older surviving children, she was devastated by Rudolf's death and was never quite the same again.

[Adagietto]

THat's a very interesting point, Elisabeth was more cultivated than her husband, while quite the opposite was true of Diana. It has always seemed to me that one of the main problems with Wales's marriage was that Prince Charles is a highly cultivated man (unusually so for a senior member of the British royal family), interested in serous music, literature, ideas etc., while Diana was ill-educated and had no real appreciation for any form of high culture; they had virtually no interests in common.

[Romanov_fan]

I agree that she probably had anorexia and certainly an eating disorder, I just had only read a little, and knew that back then it wasn't called that, although it would have been the same thing, just not officiallly called that . I am not an expert on her having only read Joan Haslip's ( think thats who it was )biography of her. I wish there was more in English, can anyone think of any good biography of her in English other than that?  Those  are good comparisons with Princess Diana, things that I wouldn't have known or thought of. There are tons of books about Princess Diana out there, and so few about Sissi it seems ( at least in English). That's a contrast!

[Greenowl]

Yes indeed, the difference between the partners in both cases was very great. Marie Festetics (one of Elisabeth's ladies in waiting), summed up Emperor Franz-Joseph as follows: "The Emperor possesses intelligence and quick understanding. Yet he gives his imagination no time to develop. Thus he sometimes acts abruptly, overworked as he is and incredibly devoted to his duties. For him only primitive concepts exist: Beautiful - Ugly, Dead - Living, Healthy - Sick, Young - Old, Clever - Stupid. These are all separate notions to him and he is unable to form a bridge leading from one to the other......His ideas know no nuances" (Marie Festetics' Diary: Entry of Nov. 28th. 1873). Although he loved her dearly, he never really understood Elisabeth and described her ideas as "Wolkenkraxlerei" ("Cloud climbing"), using the word in a pejorative sense. For her part Elisabeth always felt misunderstood. Ironically, the only member of her immediate family to share her high ideals and political views was her son, Crown Prince Rudolf. He most resembled his mother, while the girls took after their father. However, for whatever reason, Elisabeth failed to realize this until it was too late.

I think the Brigitte Hamann biography of Elisabeth is available in an English translation (as far as I know the English title is "The reluctant Empress")

[Janet_W.]

Well, the meaning of “cultivated” can be fodder for discussion. As one of my university profs once remarked, “Everyone has culture. Whether it’s YOUR kind of ‘culture’ is another matter!”

Diana herself was known for being self-deprecating about her own intellectual abilities. But she WAS a quick study. And although her aides realized she was not interested in pages and pages of reading material, when interested and/or motivated she had tremendous ability to apply herself. (I rather think holds true for many if not most of us!) Remember she married while still a teenager. Her tastes in music and other areas, were therefore very much those of a teenager’s.  Soon afterwards she became a mother, and as many of us know, that in itself is a full-time plus occupation. Of course she could have spent less time with William and, later, Harry, and there’s no denying she could have back-up support to take care of the children whenever she wished. But she opted to be with her children as much as possible, so while she became thoroughly reacquainted with childhood culture, other pursuits that might have been were put on hold. The issue was exacerbated all the more due to the crumbling relationship with her husband and relationships with men through whom she sought not just sexual gratification but emotional validation.

In the final year of her life, however, she was showing herself to be more and more self-possessed and getting a handle on how to conserve and direct her energies for both public and private pursuits. Had she lived I think she would have been a powerful voice and presence for humanitarian causes for much of the 21st century.

[Romanov_fan]

I just reread this thread and realized that Sissi died in her early 60s. I didn't realize that- Diana was much younger,  only 36. I think the Winterhalter ( is that who?) portrait of Sissi gets stuck in her head, and you always see her like that, forever young. So, that's a difference.Another comes about the last years of their lives, while similar in the sense they were both, in my opinion, searching for themselves at the time of their deaths ( it had only been a year since the Princess Diana's divorce, while Sissi had long been traveling restlessly), Princess Diana's end may have been more drifting, or it might have been what the last poster states- it was so up in the air. While Sissi was never going to find herself, and from what I remember of reading her biography, she was extrenely restless in her later years.

[Greenowl]

Imperial Angel, Elisabeth would have been so pleased to hear you say that! She actively strove to keep alive the cult of her own youth and beauty and for that reason refused to allow herself to be photographed in her later years. The few photos that exist show her hiding her face with either a fan or a parasol. During the first interrogation her assassin Lucheni stated "she wasn't very beautiful. Quite old already. Anybody who says differently doesn't know what he is talking about, or he lies". Thus the famous Winterhalter portrait, executed when she was about 30 and at the height of her beauty, is the image that sticks in everyone's mind....just as she would have wanted.

I agree with Janet W when she says that in the final year of her life, Princess Diana was showing herself to be more and more self-possessed and getting a handle on how to conserve and direct her energies for both public and private pursuits. There is a good chance that had she lived, she would have become a powerful voice for humanitarian causes in the 21st century. Elisabeth, on the other hand, was a broken woman both physically and mentally. In the last year of her life she wrote to her beloved Marie-Valerie "I feel as if I am eighty years old....even this will end sooner or later and I will enjoy eternal peace". After her murder her daughters consoled themselves with the thought that death came as a happy release for her, and that it happened as she had always wished "far away from everyone, without doctors and nurses and by the shore of the sea". Strangely enough, a few hours before her assassination she remarked to her lady-in-waiting that the lake of Geneva was unusually beautiful that day, "with little waves, just like the sea".

[Adagietto]

I am afraid I see little evidence that Diana was getting a hold on herself. But then, what does it matter? As a cultural phenomenon, she was never much more than a vehicle for other people's dreams and fantasies.

[Romanov_fan]

Perhaps Sissi too, would have been a vehicle for others dreams and fantasies had she lived in more of a media age, as both were iconic beauties with compelling traits to make them such. I think you are right about Princess Diana was a vehicle for others dreams and fantasies. I think she was more than that though, but she did have many different sides.

[Grace]

I am afraid I see little evidence that Diana was getting a hold on herself. But then, what does it matter? As a cultural phenomenon, she was never much more than a vehicle for other people's dreams and fantasies.

I think it unlikely that the many people whose lives Diana personally touched would regard her as such.  The only ones to genuinely think of her as a 'dream and a fantasy' were those who made money from her - namely the media and we could probably throw in a few of her supposed 'friends' too...

[Romanov_fan]

Well, I think in a general, cultural sense she was, that's what I was refering to, not refering to her in the sense of people who knew her and her day to day life. That could be true though, in some cases. Thats what I meant when I said Sissi might have been that kind of cultural phenomena had she lived in an age when pictures defined her, not Winterhalter portraits. Thus, in a general sense for the people of Great Britiain, and the world, Princess Diana was a vehicle of others dreams and fantasies. Thought I once read a book that would show this- will look up title, it was more on the academic side, but it consisted of people's commentaries about Diana.

[Romanov_fan]

This is an always relevant topic to Diana..

[Romanov_fan]

Just bumping this up for Sasha1. Would love more thoughts added to this topic.

[Imperial_Grounds]

They were alike indeed, partially, they both had unhappy marriages, both didn't fit into Royal Court but were loved by the people, both also died tragically, and abroad, and both were beautiful women(besides Luchini's statement that the Empress was ugly I never heard it, to be honest I heard she aged beautiful - I'll have to check on the book.), ofcourse they will also be remembered for their legendary beauty, and both also have certain myths surrounding them, as several other people who left a mark on the world.