Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address

[David_Pritchard]

Dear Hikaru,

There are a few different choices for the transliteration into proper court English. My own choice for this word would be Most Enlightened. Of course the styles with the Russian word svet within or prefixed to them are usually translated into the equivelent Latin based word serene, so theoretically it could also be Most Serene. In the case of an Emperor, Most Serene does not sound grand enough. Most Enlightened sounds most appropriate to me.


Most Enlightened, Omnipotent, Great Sovereign Emperor Nikolai Pavlovich, Autocrat of all the Russias, Most Merciful Sovereign,

[hikaru]

Thank you all.
As for the court list,  I took only Ladies- in - Waiting but it contains the names and posts of the secretaries, doctors etc.
I am sure that it is from somekind of the Handbook or from annually book like " All Petersburg"

As for Oliv, Lady- in - Waiting of Maria Pavlovna, Her name was Elizaveta Sergeevna and she was a daughter of Sergey Vasilievich Oliv, General

As for Court Circular - do you mean Kamer- Fourriersky Journal?if you mean this, the names of freylinas were not reffered there  every day. Only sometimes , maybe on the wish of the man who wrote it or in case of some big event.
By the way , who was in duty to write the Kamer - Fourrier journal?

I thought that 2 freylinas for Marie Feodorovna are  not enough.

[AlexP]

Thank you all.
As for the court list,  I took only Ladies- in - Waiting but it contains the names and posts of the secretaries, doctors etc.
I am sure that it is from somekind of the Handbook or from annually book like " All Petersburg"

As for Oliv, Lady- in - Waiting of Maria Pavlovna, Her name was Elizaveta Sergeevna and she was a daughter of Sergey Vasilievich Oliv, General

As for Court Circular - do you mean Kamer- Fourriersky Journal?if you mean this, the names of freylinas were not reffered there  every day. Only sometimes , maybe on the wish of the man who wrote it or in case of some big event.
By the way , who was in duty to write the Kamer - Fourrier journal?

I thought that 2 freylinas for Marie Feodorovna are  not enough.

Hirakushka,

Please, I need more information than this.  A newspaper called "All Petera"?  Can you provide more information.

To answer your questions :

The OberKammermeister would have been responsible for the Kammernii Kourrier.  The post of OberKammermeister was not a very dynamic post; it was a static post, and one in which the sons of one generation often had replaced the fathers of the previous.  It was a position of great trust.  My memory fails me as to who was the OberKammermeister in the last several years of Nicolas's Reign.  I am sure that you can pull that one up quickly in Moscow.
Naryshkin was Master of the Robes.  Was it Freidrichs?  Might it have been Benckendorff?  I seem to feel that it was Prince Obolensky.  Please check.  MY MEMORY CAME BACK TO ME.  I am sure that the last OberKammermeister was Baron Meyendorff, who later emigrated to Paris, and then his sons emigrated to New  York. Almost 100% sure.  Please let me know.

The ladies-in-waiting were not listed everyday, but if you read the Kammernii Kourier for two-or-three months, you will have a very accurate idea of who was "en poste".  

Regarding Maria Feodorovna, "preseance" (court protocol) dictated that she have at least an equal number of "Frauleina" if not greater than the Empress -- remember, she was highly of higher rank than the Empress, something that bothered the Empress to the end (and a position which the Dowager Empress thoroughly enjoyed).

Hirakushka, I do remember, however, that Marie Feodorovna had at least four frauleina (I will continue to use the Russian word) and these frauleina changed very little (meaning she was very liked by them and they quite liked her).  Upon the death of her husband, until about 1905, I believe, they did not change, and they only changed slightly after.

The usual course of employ for a Frauleine was from Maria Pavlovna's employ, or the employ of Marie Feodorovna, to the employ of the Empress.  Alexandra Feodorovna eventually stopped this practice and replied upon Mme Vryubova for suggestions.  Additionally, Count Petr Apraxine was also very formative in his suggestions, and was Baron Meyendorf.

There we are...

[hikaru]

Dear Alexandr Alexandrovich!

"Veshy Peterburg" is not a newspaper.
"All Petersburg " is a 7 kg 's big  red volume (brick) .
It is annual edition. It consists the ifm of all official institutes, addresse of all Ministries , Embassies, Court Names etc.
as well it consists the names and addresses  and tel no. (when tel. appeared) of all people who were registered
in the city.
The best editions are till 1918.
But they continued to print it till 1925-1927 in the same form. But then the content became lesser and lesser.
Almost all archives have it.
Sometimes  I saw it in the antique books store , but it's usual  price was  more than 1000 dollars.
In Internet there is an " All Moscow" edition of 1901.

[hikaru]

Do you mean Ober- Kamerger by saying Ober Kammermeister?
if you mean Ober- Kamerger , that  I have found that on the situation of 01.01.1915, there were no a man on this post. In November of 1916  Styurmer have received this post.  From 1884 -1902 Naryshkin Emmanuil Dmitrievich was in this post.  Completely as you said. Naryshkin died on 1902 when he was 90 year old. I did not find yet who was till 1915.

Fredericks was a Minister of a Court from 1897 till 1917.

[Mike]

theoretically it could also be Most Serene. In the case of an Emperor, Most Serene does not sound grand enough.

Most Serene is the correct translation. E.g. in his famous speech at Worms Martin Luther addressed Charles V. The classic Russian translation of this speech contains "Vsesvetleyshiy Imperator", while in English it's always translated "Most Serene Emperor".

Besides that, the English "enlightened" has quite a different meaning from the Russian "svetleyshiy".

[Belochka]

Marie Feodorovna -  Countess Geiden, Countess Mengden

Alexandra Feodorovna - Hofmeisterine - Naryshkina,
Lady - In - Waiting - Duchess Obolenskaya, Duchess Jambakurian-Orbeliani, Byutsova
Special Lady -Countess Hendrikova

These were the ladies attached to:

1. Her Imperial Majesty Dowager Empress Mari Fedorovna (Pri Ee Vdovstvuushei Imperatritse Marii Fedorovna:

. Starshaya Dama (Mistress of the Robes) -

Knyaginya (Princess) Elena Kochubey

. Kamer-freilini (Maids of Honor) -

Grafin'i (Countesses):

Algaida Golenistchev-Koutouzova (d. 1915),
Mariya Golenistchev-Koutouzova (d. 1915),
Ekaterina Sergeevna Ozerova.

. Freilini -

Mariya Sergeevna Benkendorf,
Ol'ga Alexandrovna Heyden,
Zinaida Georgievna Mengden.

Zaveduyushii Kanselyariya Vdovstuushei Imperatritze (Head of Chancellery and Secretariat of Dowager Empress M.F.) -

Graf (Count) Arsenii Arkad'yevich Golenistschev-Koutuzov (d. 1913)

Ober-gofmeister -

Knyaz' (Prince) Vladimir Anatolyevich Bariatinsky

. Gofmeistera:

General-Ad'jutant, Knyaz' Nikolai Dmitrievich Obolensky (d. 1912),
Fligel'-Ad'jutant, Knyaz' Georgi Dmitrievich Schervachidze.
_____________________________________________

2. Attached to Her Imperial Majesty Alexandra Fedorovna (Pri Ee Imperatorskogo Velichestvo Aleksandra Fedorovna):

. Ober-gofmeistrina pri Visochaishego Dvora (Chief Lady in Waiting + Mistress of the Robes attached to the Imperial Court)

Knyaginya (Princess) Marya Mikhailovna Golitzyn  (d. 1910)

. Gofmeistrina pri Visochaishego Dvora:

Knyaginya Elizaveta Alekseevna Narishkina

. Starshiye-Dami pri Visochaishego Dvora:

Knyaginya Aleksandra Alexeyevna Kozena,
Grafin'ya Gedviga Aloizievna de Freederiks.

. Kamer-Freilini pri Visochaishego Dvora:

Baronessa Sophia Karlovna Buxhoeveden (the most senior),
Knyaginya Sonya Ivanovna Orbeliani (d. 1915),
Grafinya Anastasiya Vasilievna Hendrikova,
Anna Alexandrovna Vyrubova.

. Freilini pri Visochaishego Dvora (Honorary Ladies in Waiting):

Knyaginii
Mariya Bariatinskaya,
Ol'ga Evgenyeva Butzova (until 1915),
Elizaveta Karlovna Cantacuzene (Countess Speranskaya),
Elizaveta Kochubey,
Elizaveta Obolenskaya,
Ol'ga Konstantinovna Orlova,
Mariya Alexandrovna Vasil'chikova.

. Ober-gofmeister:

Graf Vasili Alexandrovich Hendrikov (in 1911)

. Zaveduyushii Kanselyarei Tsaritse (Head of her Majesty's Chancellery):

Gofmarshal Graf Yakov Nikolaevich Rostovtsov

- he was also her Private Secretary.

. General-Adj'utanti:

Baron Fedor Meyendorff,
Admiral Konstantin Pavlovich Pilkin (d. 1913)

This list does not provide all personages attached to each Court.

[AlexP]

Do you mean Ober- Kamerger by saying Ober Kammermeister?
if you mean Ober- Kamerger , that  I have found that on the situation of 01.01.1915, there were no a man on this post. In November of 1916  Styurmer have received this post.  From 1884 -1902 Naryshkin Emmanuil Dmitrievich was in this post.  Completely as you said. Naryshkin died on 1902 when he was 90 year old. I did not find yet who was till 1915.

Fredericks was a Minister of a Court from 1897 till 1917.

Yes, Ober---Kamerger.

I was aware that All Peters was a "botin" (a listing of all of the posts, etc.).  I SWEAR, Hirakushka, that in 1915-197 it was Baron von Meyendorff.

Regards,

A.A.

[AlexP]

Dear All,

Thank you very much.  Very informative.

But Belochka, can you please provide the Russian title for "general adjutant"

I am looking at Baron von Meyendorff....

Regards,

A.

[hikaru]

I believe you. I have just posted what I have found in the book.
General-Adyutant was  in Russian . (the same)
in 1913, Duke Shervashize was Ober hofmeister of
Maria Feorovna .
Baryatinsky was general -adyutant.                                                                          Kulomzin  was a secretary of Marie Feodorovna
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

[Belochka]

Dear All,
But Belochka, can you please provide the Russian title for "general adjutant"

I am looking at Baron von Meyendorff....

Regards,

A.

The Russian transliteration is as I have provided in my Court Listing - General-Adj'utant

Baron Mikhail Meyendorf (1838-1919) was a General and who was associated with the Red Cross Mission in Copenhagen. Exiled in Copenhagen following the Bolshevik Revolution. He was buried in Nice.

. Baronessa Mimi Meyendorf (spouse) nee Sheremetyevna.

[Ref: M.F. Diaries (2005) p 666]

Trust this helps you!

[Belochka]

Kulomzin  was a secretary of Marie Feodorovna

Kolomzin, Anatoli Nikolaevich (1838- 1923)  was a Gofmeister  and President of the Committee for Orphaned Children in Romanovsk.

[hikaru]

Kulomzin Anatoly Nikolaevich, at the situation of 1913 was a camerger and  a Chief of the Chancellary.
( I have read it in my book)

According the book of Marie Feodorovna Diaries , he was Hofmeister. Maybe he became hofmeyster after 1913.

As for his Father Name, it is intresting.
In some book it refers as A.A.

Such things often happened.

[AlexP]

Kolomzin, Anatoli Nikolaevich (1838- 1923)  was a Gofmeister  and President of the Committee for Orphaned Children in Romanovsk.

Please excuse me..but it's an historial footnote.

And the Kolomzin family emigrated in the Revolution, first to Latvia, then to Paris (where they were instrumental in founding l'Institut St-Serge), some are buried in Ste-Genevieve-des-Bois, and after the war, the remaining Kolomzine (by this time using the French spelling), emigrated to New York, where one daugther became as established professor at a Russian Orthodox Theological Seminary  The daughter died at a very advanced age, only several years ago and is bured at the Tolstoy Foundation Cemetery, outside of New York.

[AlexP]

The Russian transliteration is as I have provided in my Court Listing - General-Adj'utant

Baron Mikhail Meyendorf (1838-1919) was a General and who was associated with the Red Cross Mission in Copenhagen. Exiled in Copenhagen following the Bolshevik Revolution. He was buried in Nice.

. Baronessa Mimi Meyendorf (spouse) nee Sheremetyevna.
[Ref: M.F. Diaries (2005) p 666]

Trust this helps you!

Again an historical perspective.  After the Revolution, the Meyendroff family settled in Copehagen where he served the Dowager Empress briefly.  They then moved to Paris where they were instrumental, together with the Kulomzine's below, in founding the Institut St-Serge, which for a period of time, was the only functioning Russian Orthodox Seminary in the world.  Because they spoke both German and Russian, during the Occupation some of the family members assisted the Kriegsmarine, and thus after the war some of the family members left for New York, the others, who had not been involved, remained in Paris.  The New York branch was instrumental in the furthering of St. Vladimir's Russian Orthodox Seminary in Crestwood, Tuckahoe.  Fr. J. Meyendorff was Rector of the Seminary for many years.  He passed away many years ago and his son has followed him in the father's footsteps.  The Paris branch of the family remains highly Russified, even after 80 years abroad, and remain a beacon of the Russian community.

The Moscow branch of the Sheremetyva family took a different path after the Revolution : some went directly to Buenos Aires, others went to Harbin and others settled briefly in Paris and then left for New York in the after-war years.  The Paris branch has since deceased, as has the New York branch; however, the Buenos Aires branch emigrated to San Francisco when the Argentine economy fell apart in the late 1960s have produced progeniture.  They are quite active in the Parish Cathedral of the Church Abroad in San Francisco.