Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address

[Belochka]

According the book of Marie Feodorovna Diaries , he was Hofmeister. Maybe he became hofmeyster after 1913.

The original Germanic appellation in Russian texts is Gofmeister  

[Belochka]

Thanks Alex you had far more details that I could access in a short period.

I find it fascinating how emigres managed to cope after 1917; and how scattered the Russian community became over successive decades around this precious world of ours.

[AlexP]

Thanks Alex you had far more details that I could access in a short period.

I find it fascinating how emigres managed to cope after 1917; and how scattered the Russian community became over successive decades around this precious world of ours.

Belochka,

The details are all from memory.  I write very humbly when I say that these are all families that I have known and that have known me.  We all kind of keep track of each other.  I am sure that you can understand that.

My point in writing was to show that a good part of the Russian elite, scattered abroad after 1917, still believes in an "obshaya vockrecenyia Rossii", as do I.  Frankly, I am delighted that the Church is restoring itself to its former position of preeminence.  I am very grateful to the Patriarch personally for supporting the rights of the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna to the Throne.  The West wrote Russia off in 1917, again in 1945 and now.  But this century could be a century of great surprises.

Thank you for appreciating my posts.

A.A.

[AlexP]

You can actually find the English equivalents in my translation:

1.Oberhofmeisterin - Grand Mistress of the Court
2.Hofmeisterin - Mistress of the Court
3.Stats-Dame - lady-in-waiting  
Unmarried:
4.Kammerfräulein - Portrait Maiden of Honor
5.Fräulein - maiden of honor

And Mme Naryshkina, who was Mistress of the Robes, her title would have been ...(in Russian, I mean, please)

[Matjlav]

His Highness the Prince of the Imperial Blood
Great grand sons of the Emperor in the male line and the eldest son of each of the great grand sons of the Emperor in the male line.

Would the eldest son of the eldest son of a great grandson also be a Highess? That's what I've always gathered; problem is, I don't think the issue ever came up, but I figure there is an Imperial Household Law concerning the issue.

His Serenity the Prince of the Imperial Blood
Great great grand sons of the Emperor in the male line.

Her Serenity the Princess of the Imperial Blood
Great great grand daughters of the Emperor in the male line.

Don't Serene Prince/sses include all male-line non-morganatic descendants of a Russian Emperor that do not meet any of the qualifications to be a Grand Duke of Highness?

[David_Pritchard]

Would the eldest son of the eldest son of a great grandson also be a Highess? That's what I've always gathered; problem is, I don't think the issue ever came up, but I figure there is an Imperial Household Law concerning the issue.


Don't Serene Prince/sses include all male-line non-morganatic descendants of a Russian Emperor that do not meet any of the qualifications to be a Grand Duke of Highness?

Dear Mat,

Regarding the title of Highness and the eldest son of a GD who was the grandson of an emperor. This eldest son is the representative of this cadet line of the Imperial House. Along with the style of Highness the representative of this cadet line also has a distinctive coat-of-arms. The arms, title and style descend by male line primogenitor ad infinitum. I suppose in time this would have been changed had the monarchy survived.


The large coat-of arms of a Highness Prince of the Imperial Blood who is the senior male heir by primogenitor of a Grand Duke who was the grandson of an Emperor.


Regarding your second question, No. Certain relatives were granted the style of Highness even though they were not Grand Dukes. Some of the morganauts also hold the style of Serene. Of course there are the heads of the cadet lines that hold the style of Highness.

David

[AlexP]

Dear Mat,

Regarding the title of Highness and the eldest son of a GD who was the grandson of an emperor. This eldest son is the representative of this cadet line of the Imperial House. Along with the style of Highness the representative of this cadet line also has a distinctive coat-of-arms. The arms, title and style descend by male line primogenitor ad infinitum. I suppose in time this would have been changed had the monarchy survived.



The large coat-of arms of a Highness Prince of the Imperial Blood who is the senior male heir by primogenitor of a Grand Duke who was the grandson of an Emperor.


Regarding your second question, No. Certain relatives were granted the style of Highness even though they were not Grand Dukes. Some of the morganauts also hold the style of Serene. Of course there are the heads of the cadet lines that hold the style of Highness.

David

David,

Thank you so much for the very, very learned explanation.  It is very helpful to me.

Again,

bolshoe vam cpacibo...

i prodolzhaete p++++a

c ucpexom.


AA.

[Belochka]

those of a lesser rank than Grand Duke or a Prince of the Royal Blood; a Metropolitan of the Church would have written otherwise.

Knyazii (Dukes) i Grafi were styled:

Vasaha Siyatel'stvo

while the Metropolitan and Archiepiskop were addressed as:

Vashe Visokopreosvyashenstvo

[AlexP]

Knyazii (Dukes) i Grafi were styled:

Vasaha Siyatel'stvo

while the Metropolitan and Archiepiskop were addressed as:

Vashe Visokopreosvyashenstvo

I concur, Belochka, about the Grafs.

However, in some cases, upon decision of the Holy Synod, a Metropolitan could also be called :

"Vashe Blazhentsvo".

This was usually reserved for an outstanding prelate and for an oustanding see (Kiev, Petersburg).

Another form would have been (in direct speech):

"Evo Visokopreosvyashenstvo, Blazhineeshee X"

[Belochka]

However, in some cases, upon decision of the Holy Synod, a Metropolitan could also be called :
 
"Vashe Blazhentsvo".

Is this a contemporary designation to distinguish the Russian Metropolit from the one in Kiev or was this particular address used during Imperial era as well?

[julia.montague]

I am wondering about the titles of Olga, Tatjana, Maria and Anastasia (and any other children of Russian Tsars).
In English they are always called Grandduchesses, while in German texts it's "Großfürstinnen" which means Grandprincesses.
What's the right title?
Grandduchess or Grandprincess??
Julia

[Sarushka]

In English, prince & princess refer to the children of a king. Duke & duchess are the children of an emperor.  There are a few folks out there who insist on using Grand Princess rather than Grand Duchess (most notably, the author Charlotte Zeepvat) but I believe the correct translation is Grand Duke/Duchess.

In Olga Alexandrovna's memoirs there's a charming story about a Canadian child who asks Olga (in English), "Is it true you're a princess?" Olga replied, "No, I'm a Russian Grand Duchess." I figure, if the daughter of a tsar says it that way, it's good enough for me!

Sm

[julia.montague]

Thanks for your answer.
It seems that Grandduchess is the right title.
I just think it's strange that really every german book, film.... calls them Grandprincesses, but maybe someone translated it hundred of years ago and noone knew it better...

[Forum Admin]

Yes, Emperor is superior to just a King.  I believe this is a major reason why Queen Victoria felt it was so important to become "Empress of India".

[Baby_Tsarevich]

Yes Grand Duchess is correct, because OTMA (and all the other grand duchesses or Russia) were much higher ranked than the other princesses and etc. so they were called not just Duchesses, but Grand Duchesses!

~Anya~