Author Topic: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address  (Read 235967 times)

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Shvibzik

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #165 on: December 01, 2005, 07:27:51 PM »
Referring to the British and Irish earl, what would their territory be called?

Offline crazy_wing

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #166 on: December 01, 2005, 07:35:53 PM »
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Referring to the British and Irish earl, what would their territory be called?

Is it earldom?

Offline Ortino

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #167 on: December 01, 2005, 09:03:27 PM »
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Is it earldom?


yes.

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #168 on: December 02, 2005, 09:37:16 AM »
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In the UK, one would address a marquess, earl, viscount, baron, and their female counterparts as "my lord" or "my lady."


Actually, you would only have done that, at least in the 19th and early 20th centuries, if you were a servant.   In fact, most forms of address are more fluid than is commonly supposed, and have more to do with in- or exclusivity and sometimes fashion, than with actual rank.  

Offline TampaBay

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #169 on: December 04, 2005, 09:35:07 AM »
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In Imperial Russia, The Tsar and his immediate family (NAOTMAA) would be "Your Imperial Highness".  All other Grand Dukes/Duchesses would be "Your Highness".


Were Xenia, Olga, George and Micharl "Imperial Highnesses" aftet he Death of their father Tsar Alexander III?

TampaBay
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Shvibzik

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #170 on: December 04, 2005, 09:55:33 AM »
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Were Xenia, Olga, George and Micharl "Imperial Highnesses" aftet he Death of their father Tsar Alexander III?

TampaBay

I would think so, since they are no longer part of the immediate family of the Tsar.  

But, as Marie was then [after the death of Alexander] the "Dowager Empress", would she be called "Your Majesty" instead of "Your Imperial Majesty" or some other style?

David_Pritchard

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #171 on: December 04, 2005, 01:50:22 PM »
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I would think so, since they are no longer part of the immediate family of the Tsar.  

But, as Marie was then [after the death of Alexander] the "Dowager Empress", would she be called "Your Majesty" instead of "Your Imperial Majesty" or some other style?


It is interesting to think that the Romanovs were some sort of insular middle class family. I am sure that Empress Aleksandra did just this which was her greatest deficiency but they were a ruling dynasty. Until the birth of Aleksei, Grand Duke Mikhail Aleksandrovich was more important than the four daughters as he was the heir. Even with the birth of Aleksei, Grand Duke Mikhail was still second in line to inherit the Russian Throne after a very sickly boy who would most likely never reach majority.

The rules regarding the style of Imperial Highness are as follows: all legitimate children of an equal marriage of an Emperor receive the style of Imperial Highness for life. All legitimate children of an equal marriage of a son of an Emperor receive the style of Imperial Highness for life.

There have been exceptions made to this rule regarding the style of Imperial Highness but they are extremely rare, such as the case for the children of HIH Grand Duchess Maria Nikolievna and her husband the HIH Duke of Leuchtenburg/Prince Romanovsky.

Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna actually held higher precedence than any other woman in Russia including Empress Aleksandra.


David
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by David_Pritchard »

Offline cimbrio

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #172 on: December 24, 2005, 10:32:38 AM »
In 1886 Alexander III passed an ukase whereby he declared that all sons and grandchildren (through the male line, i.e., sons and daughters of a Tsar's son) were entitled to be styled Grand Duke or Grand Duchess (or Grand Prince(ss) by some sources, depending on how you translate "Knyaz"). This immediately affected KR's offspring, the first of which was born that same year and was only styled "Prince" (Knyaz) Ioann Constantinovich. The 1886 ukase not only affected the individual's title but also his income, reducing it considerably. It meant that generations further than third generation froma  Tsar (i.e., great-grandchildren) would only be Prince or Princess. To my mind, there are no living Grand Dukes or Grand Duchesses, but only Princes or Princesses. Nicholas II also decreed that a Prince or Princess didn't need to marry somebody necessarily royal (that's why he permitted his distant cousin Princess Tatiana to amrry Constantin of Bragation, a quasi-royal). This last reform caused some scandal within the family. This is a touchy subject of course since it affects the status of "Grand Duchess" Maria Vladimirovna. Will he son's children be also Grand Dukes or Grand Duchesses, even if he amrries a commoner?

Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #173 on: December 24, 2005, 04:47:20 PM »
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This is a touchy subject of course since it affects the status of "Grand Duchess" Maria Vladimirovna. Will he son's children be also Grand Dukes or Grand Duchesses, even if he amrries a commoner?


Thanks to her (great?) grandfather (the Grandduke Vladimir) and his morganatic marriage none of them should be titled or eligible for the Russian throne.  It's a totally bogus claim!  

RomanovFan

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #174 on: December 29, 2005, 03:13:23 AM »
The children and grandchlidren of a tsar are given the title of grand duke or grand duchess if they are descended from a male line; if not, then they usually have no title, or are called "count" or "coutness". I think it's the great-grandchildren of a tsar, through the male line, are prince of the Imperial Blood. I'm not positive, but I think that's how it works.

RomanovFan

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #175 on: December 29, 2005, 03:22:23 AM »
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Thanks to her (great?) grandfather (the Grandduke Vladimir) and his morganatic marriage none of them should be titled or eligible for the Russian throne.  It's a totally bogus claim!  


The grand duke Vladimir? Which one are we talking about? Her father was Grand Duke Vladimir Kyrillovitch, he married Leonida of Bagration. I'm not sure if she's decsended from a noble house or what. But according to Maria herself the line goes something like this:

Nicholas I---Alexander II---Alexander III---Nicholas II---OTMAA

Nicholas I---Alexander II----Vladimir---Kyrill---Vladimir---Maria---George

So according to MV's claim, she is a great-great granddaughter of Tsar Alexander II. If this is true, she is also a great-great niece of Tsar Alexander III and a third cousin of the descased Nicholas II and his siblings.

Jim_Wilhelm

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #176 on: May 15, 2006, 10:55:19 AM »
Hi All:

I suppose this could have been posted under "Having Fun" but it does pertain directly to the IF so I don't think it's totally out of place here.

I'm interested in hearing from you about how YOU think members of the IF would have been officially introduced in English. I'm talking about a Royal Ball or an official function. Consider how it would go...

Nicholas II: "Ladies and Gentlemen...His Imperial Majesty Tsar Nicholas Alexandrovich Romanov the Second, Emperor of all The Russias". No?  How would it go then? Would it have been simply "His Imperial Majesty"?  How then?

Alexandra: "Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty Tsarina Alexandra Feodorovna Romanova, Empress of all The Russias". No? How would it go then? Would "Her Imperial Majesty have been sufficient? What, then?

Nicholas and Alexandra together at the portico or at the top of a grand staircase: "Ladies and Gentlemen...Their Royal Highnesses Tsar Nicholas Alexandrovich Romanov the Second, Emperor of all The Russias and Tsarina Alexandra Feodorovna Romanova, Empress of all the Russias" No? Do I have Alexandra's patronymic wrong? How would it have gone then?

Olga: "Ladies and Gentlemen..."her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Tatiana: "Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Marie: Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Maria Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Anastasia: Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Alexei: Ladies and Gentlemen..."His Imperial Majesty Tsarevich Alexander Nicholaevich Romanov of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Please teach me how to properly introduce these individuals in English. Thank you for your time and attention. I hope we can all have fun with this. :)

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Jim_Wilhelm »

frimousse

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #177 on: May 15, 2006, 06:14:12 PM »
First: the IF was NEVER introduced ! But their people were introduced to them...it's quite a difference.

Second : They were never named after their family surname, Romanov, name which is largely widespread in Russia ( Romanov=means  the family of Roman, like Petrov means the family of Peter or Pavlov the family of Paul)

They were "only" for a Grand Duke for example His Imperial Highness Sergey Alexandrovich. Abroad he might be His Imperial Highness Sergey Alexandrovich of Russia, bur NEVER NEVER HIH Sergey Alexandrovich Romanov which would have sounded ridiculous and insulting. They were as individuals only dedicated to Russia that's all...

The Emperor was His Imperial Majesty Emperor Sovereign Nicholas II ( or Nicolas Alexandrovich) of All The Russias, Grand Duke of Finland, King of Poland and so on...on WRITTEN documents.
The word Tzar or Czar ( TSESAR, from latin Caesar) was not on official documents, but the word IMPERATOR ( from latin: Emperor) after Peter the Great.

He signed only by his Christian name : Nicholas ( Nikolaï) that's all...
So did the Grand Dukes and Grand Duchess, they signed: Mikhail, Maria, Olga, Wladimir, no name period...

Under official portraits and photographies or in books and newspapers it was added before the titles The August Family, The August Sovereign ( Gosudar) or The August Tzarevich ( Tsesarevich) etc...It was also the same for other Royal families in Europe.

Only the dynasty was associated with the name Romanov, not individuals.

All these rules were the same for any ruling Royal or Imperial family anywhere in Europe...unless members of these families had a special PERSONAL title such as Duke or Count of something or other traditions such as only MONSIEUR for the brother of the King in France. In Russia members of the Imperial Family didn't have any personal title, they were just Maria, Dimitri or Boris.

In France, the King entered in any room AFTER his people who had to wait for his arrival and to be in time BEFORE him, nobody could arrive after him or depart before him.
When he stepped in the room it was proclaimed: "Messieurs, le Roi !" and people had to wait untill the chamberlain allowed them to be introduced to him
Nobody was supposed to speak to him first .

It was the same for any Court in Europe.

Even now no one speaks first to the Queen of England and nobody is allowed to ask her a question. People are only supposed to REPLY with respect.

That was exactly the same at the Russian Court.

When you deal with official duties at this time, forget about the individual, only the rank was taken into account. So the matter was not to specify who the individual was, but to show only the function. (for Russian Emperors, their function was sent by God to only one person, the Emperor, who was given for that the Sacrement of the Holy Unction).
Same for other kingdoms.

That's why one talked about THE king or THE Emperor, and that's enough...
Forget about nowadays when one talks about President Bush, President Clinton or President Whosoever. It would have been ( I'm joking...) if the same rules were current today: THE President, period...

Hope it could help... ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by frimousse »

Jim_Wilhelm

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #178 on: May 16, 2006, 10:38:55 AM »
Dear Frimousse:

Wow! That was absolutely fantastic!  THANK YOU!  I've just learned more from reading that than I've learned in the past year. What a wonderful treatment of the subject. I know it's all very pretentious but that's what I'm interested in and I'm very grateful I have a place like this to come to and satisfy that curiosity. I never cease to be amazed at the massive intellect, profound insight, and sense of humor of those I encounter on this site. My profound respect and gratitude.

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Jim_Wilhelm »

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #179 on: May 17, 2006, 12:15:41 AM »
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Hi All:

I suppose this could have been posted under "Having Fun" but it does pertain directly to the IF so I don't think it's totally out of place here.

I'm interested in hearing from you about how YOU think members of the IF would have been officially introduced in English. I'm talking about a Royal Ball or an official function. Consider how it would go...

Nicholas II: "Ladies and Gentlemen...His Imperial Majesty Tsar Nicholas Alexandrovich Romanov the Second, Emperor of all The Russias". No?  How would it go then? Would it have been simply "His Imperial Majesty"?  How then?

Alexandra: "Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty Tsarina Alexandra Feodorovna Romanova, Empress of all The Russias". No? How would it go then? Would "Her Imperial Majesty have been sufficient? What, then?

Nicholas and Alexandra together at the portico or at the top of a grand staircase: "Ladies and Gentlemen...Their Royal Highnesses Tsar Nicholas Alexandrovich Romanov the Second, Emperor of all The Russias and Tsarina Alexandra Feodorovna Romanova, Empress of all the Russias" No? Do I have Alexandra's patronymic wrong? How would it have gone then?

Olga: "Ladies and Gentlemen..."her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Tatiana: "Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Marie: Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Maria Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Anastasia: Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Alexei: Ladies and Gentlemen..."His Imperial Majesty Tsarevich Alexander Nicholaevich Romanov of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Please teach me how to properly introduce these individuals in English. Thank you for your time and attention. I hope we can all have fun with this. :)

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA

Nicholas and Alexandra were styled "Your Imperial Majesty".

Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses were styled "Your Imperial Highness".

I pretty much agree with what the previous poster said about not addressing the Emperor, not using the dynasty name as a surname, etc.