Author Topic: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address  (Read 189815 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline hikaru

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1123
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2005, 02:31:29 PM »
I do not think that he would be astonished to hear Russian.  Anyway Russian was an official language of Russian Empire from the times of Nicholas I.
I suppose that a lot of diplomats studied russian.

But they use french for international conversations for mostly of times.

AlexP

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2005, 02:31:58 PM »
Quote
I've never heard that the form "Avgusteishee" was used in a style.

Princes [non-imperial, knyaz'] and counts [graf] were addressed using the same style "Vashe Siyatel'stvo". Serene princes [svetleyshiy knyaz']: "Vasha Svetlost'".



Thank you.  Indeed the "vashe siytalstvo" is correct and the "vasha svetlost" is correct.  Thank you.

As for "agusteeshee", it was used.

And no, not all the announcements were in French, Mike.  For example, upon reception at the Duma, the announcements were in Russian.  Had They been announced in French at the Duma, that would have caused a "furore".  And in State Proclamations they were surely not announced in French.

As for the Papal Nuncio, I was not aware that Imperial Russia maintained separate relations with the Vatican prior to revolution, considering that the Vatican itself was only formalized in 1929 with the Lanterne Treaty.  Prior to that there were the Papal States and a United Italy.

But that is easy enough to determine.  And it is a good question.

One other point for our readers, however,  Nicolas II was definitely :

"We, Nicholas II, etc., etc."

"Mbi, Nikolai, II," and in formal documents "padumaem i reshaem" which came came after his long list of titles (which ended with i prochee i tak dalia")

Thank you for your help.


AlexP

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2005, 02:40:59 PM »
Quote
I do not think that he would be astonished to hear Russian.  Anyway Russian was an official language of Russian Empire from the times of Nicholas I.
I suppose that a lot of diplomats studied russian.

But they use french for international conversations for mostly of times.


Dear Mike, Dear Hikaru,

I knew that this jolted family memories and here is what I remember from the grandparents.

The very, very, very old but worldy Count Beckendorff at Tsarkoe Selo was responsible for announcing whomever was going to visit the Emperor and Empress and vice-versa when they were being received.  Depending upon the personnage, it was done in either French (as Mike pointed out), or in Russian (as Hikaru mentioned).  There was change, however, insofar as from the beginning of the war on, the presentations were made in Russian unless it was a Foreign Ambassador with no command of Russian at all.

We also know this from other sources because when the February Revolution occured, Beckendorff struggled immensely as to how to announce the visitors to the (deposed) Emperor and Empress.  He was not at all familiar with the Gospodin so-and-so and Gozpozha such-and-such which replaced all of the titles. For a while, everyone became "Vashe Peredizoditilsva" but that was quickly dispensed with.

And as I said with visitors from the Duma, and there were several prior to the Revolution, it was in Russian, not French.

Mike, Hikaru, your thoughts, here please.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AlexP »

Offline anna

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
    • View Profile
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2005, 03:06:02 PM »
For the ones who doesn't speak or understand Russian,
what does "Vashe Peredizoditilsva" mean?

Anna
Watch your thoughts, they become words. Watch your words, they become actions.
Watch your actions, they become habits.
Watch your habits, they become character. Watch your character, it becomes your destiny.

Offline hikaru

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1123
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2005, 03:21:09 PM »
There were such kind of the ifm list, which was provided to the Emperor or Family- "Svedeniya ob inostrannykh poslannikakh predstavlyayuschikhsha..for example 20.08.1902"
In which it was written if the Ambassador  and Consuls can speak Russian. Than it was written if they can speak English. About French it was not written , only in case of Korea, Japan, Tailand and China.
So maybe, if the Ambassador or Consul could speak Russian - they firstly were obliged to speak in Russian?
( I  saw such list of 1902 year. For example, in 1902 Consuls of Romania, of Netherlands, Serbia could speak russian. I saw only list of Consuls - head of missions, not Ambassadors)

Your thoughts, please

AlexP

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2005, 03:40:49 PM »
Quote
There were such kind of the ifm list, which was provided to the Emperor or Family- "Svedeniya ob inostrannykh poslannikakh predstavlyayuschikhsha..for example 20.08.1902"
In which it was written if the Ambassador  and Consuls can speak Russian. Than it was written if they can speak English. About French it was not written , only in case of Korea, Japan, Tailand and China.
So maybe, if the Ambassador or Consul could speak Russian - they firstly were obliged to speak in Russian?
( I  saw such list of 1902 year. For example, in 1902 Consuls of Romania, of Netherlands, Serbia could speak russian. I saw only list of Consuls - head of missions, not Ambassadors)

Your thoughts, please


Hikarushka,

Again, thank you so much.

This concurs with the memories of my grandfather and grandmother as they were passed along to me and which I had written not even knowing about this book.

Yes, "les entrees" at Tsarskoe Selo under Benckendorff and those in his service were made in Russian iif the personnage spoke Russian, and I am quite sure that I remember in French if the personnage spoke French.

But there is also something heartwarming in that for the Americans and the British, they were made in English, and as a matter of fact, the Empress felt quite comfortable in their presence.  The conversation was much more relaxed and she suffered far less from evident anxiety....perhaps it evoked memories of her happy stays in England...and it also allowed her to communicate freely because English was the ONE language that the servants, the police, the staff and even Vruybova did not understand (which is why many of her "Fraulayni" were chosen for their command of English, once they had been vetted on trust levels).  This was the one Alexandra Feodorovna that few persons saw...and I should say that if you were a Minister from an English-speaking country, and if you were halfway civilized, your chances of being invited to stay for tea or dinner ... were about 100%.  They were the only audiences that ran twice as long as expected and they were generally pleasurable....except Buchanan at the very end.

BTW, Hikarushka, might you be so kind as to answer Anna's question about the translation of "vashe peredizodiltvso"?  I am not quite sure how to render this in English.

Agromnoe vam cpacibo i bolhoi privet iz Shanghhai,


Alexander Alexandrovitch P.


David_Pritchard

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2005, 03:45:22 PM »
Quote
We also know this from other sources because when the February Revolution occured, Beckendorff struggled immensely as to how to announce the visitors to the (deposed) Emperor and Empress.  He was not at all familiar with the Gospodin so-and-so and Gozpozha such-and-such which replaced all of the titles. For a while, everyone became "Vashe Peredizoditilsva" but that was quickly dispensed with.



Dear Alex,

Does your transliteration of the style Vashe Peredizoditilsva mean Your Excellency? If so, I would have written this phrase as Vashe Prevoshoditelstva. It is unfortunte that this forum will not support cyrillic characters, as it would eliminate confusion in transliterating Russian based upon one's native language.


David

Offline hikaru

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1123
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2005, 04:07:03 PM »
Yes , I think that it is Vashe Prevoskhoditelystvo.
(Or maybe he just said Vashe PRejkjkjkjkjvo - just like abrakadabra in order to avoid any troubles?)

I have one question to the Alex and everybody: did Benkendorf stayed near the door of the Audience room or he went to the corridor to meet the guest and began to make " entree " in the corridor?

Offline hikaru

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1123
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2005, 04:17:14 PM »
I think that Prevoskhoditelystvo came from the verb
"prevoskhodity" which means " to be better than others" or "to be over others" or " to be upper than others"
According to the dictionary it means " excel" or "surpass".

this verb consists of two parts :
"pre" -   over

"voskhodity" - to rise, to go up, to climb


AlexP

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2005, 04:18:00 PM »
Hikaru,

There were two kind of audiences that were accorded :

les audiences discretes and

les audiences formelles (solonelles)

Each had its own set of rules.  But now it is 05h00 in the morning here in Shanghai and I need to get some rest.  I will continue tomorrow.

With kind regards,

Alexander Alexandrovitch.

P.S.  How do you translate into English the Vashe Prevoskhoditelystvo particularly in relation to its old Slavonic origins :

prevo(s)

khoditl from hodit

the "stvo" is standard enough not to represent a problem...but

Hikarushka, does really translate as Your Excellency?

I would say that a more literal might be "the honorable person first-called person"

But Hikarushka, your help here, please, and David.

I know the word in Russian and the Slavonic etymology I just can't find a comfortable English rendering.

Offline hikaru

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1123
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2005, 04:27:26 PM »
I think that in order to translate right , we have to
decide  - what was earlier
French " Votre Excellence " or Russian " Vashe Prevoskhoditelystvo'

Maybe Vashe Prevoskhoditelystvo was kalyka ( direct translation) from french during Peter or Elizaveth time?

Or Maybe Vashe Prevoskhoditelystvo was not was not the translation of Votre Excellence, Maybe it was Vashe siyatelystvo?

Let's think about it tomorrow.

Spokoynoy nochi vsem , do zavtra
Have a good night , bye-

Offline anna

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
    • View Profile
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2005, 05:08:37 PM »
Thank you guys, for making such big efforts to find the right translation.
His or Your Excellency sounds reasonable I think, maybe it's not exact but I got the impression.

Thanks and goodnight.

Anna
Watch your thoughts, they become words. Watch your words, they become actions.
Watch your actions, they become habits.
Watch your habits, they become character. Watch your character, it becomes your destiny.

Offline Mike

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1326
    • View Profile
    • Erast Fandorin Museum
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2005, 01:04:15 AM »
Let's put a little order to the language issue.

French was not an official language at the Russian court or elsewhere in Russia. However, it  was a universally accepted language of diplomacy and international relations. According to the Russian diplomatic protocol in the XIX - early XX c.c., ambassadors used French when presenting their credentials to the emperor and on other formal occasions - even if they were able of speaking Russian, or if there was another common language like English or German. It was up to an august person to switch to another language, which was considered a special grace and as such was always reported by a diplomat to his government.

Of course many foreign diplomats knew Russian sufficiently well, but I cannot recall reading about an ambassador fluent enough to maintain a conversation without the risk of embarrassment. And only ambassadors enjoyed the privilege of regularly speaking with the emperor and the empress.

AlexP

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2005, 01:32:02 AM »
Quote
Let's put a little order to the language issue.

French was not an official language at the Russian court or elsewhere in Russia. However, it  was a universally accepted language of diplomacy and international relations. According to the Russian diplomatic protocol in the XIX - early XX c.c., ambassadors used French when presenting their credentials to the emperor and on other formal occasions - even if they were able of speaking Russian, or if there was another common language like English or German. It was up to an august person to switch to another language, which was considered a special grace and as such was always reported by a diplomat to his government.

Of course many foreign diplomats knew Russian sufficiently well, but I cannot recall reading about an ambassador fluent enough to maintain a conversation without the risk of embarrassment. And only ambassadors enjoyed the privilege of regularly speaking with the emperor and the empress.


Mike, please provide your sources for these assertions.

And frankly, no, the ambassadors were not those who only regularly spoke with the Emperor and Empress.  This assertion is blantantly incorrect.  Are you aware of the difference between the morning receptions and the afternoon receptions?  Who would have been received in the morning  and who would have been received in the afternoon?  And who would have been received for tea?  A "Court Circular" was drawn up and regularly kept of those received.

I will now research the question, since I cannot be trusted on oral history, as to whether French was the "official" language of the Court.  It comes to mind that it may NOT have been the "official", that is legally stipulated de jure language of the Court, but nonetheless, it was the effective de facto language of the Court.  Letters of credence, to which you refer, were regularly presented in  the major non-Germanic Courts until the begining of the Second World War.

Actually, your reference to "special grace" is quite metaphorically beautiful but Alexandra regularly conducted her "entretiens" in English, de facto and de jure.  It was on the rare occasion that she would conduct them otherwise.

Now let me come back to you on the question of the Official Language of the Court...

Thank you for your insightful comments, even though I must politely agree to disagree.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AlexP »

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2005, 01:40:21 AM »
Quote
Or Maybe Vashe Prevoskhoditelystvo was not was not the translation of Votre Excellence, Maybe it was Vashe siyatelystvo?


Vashe Prevoskhoditel'stvo translates to: Your Superiority

This title belonged to Ranks III - IV


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/