Author Topic: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address  (Read 189960 times)

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Offline hikaru

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2005, 02:02:27 AM »
Or Top Manager - in a modern verbalia?  :D

Offline Belochka

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #61 on: August 04, 2005, 02:11:08 AM »
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Or Top Manager - in a modern verbalia?  :D


Not quite!

There was the higher Rank I - II to consider.

They were refered by: Vashe Visokoprevoskhoditel'stvo = Your High Superiority


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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #62 on: August 04, 2005, 02:12:25 AM »
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Vashe Prevoskhoditel'stvo translates to: Your Superiority

This title belonged to Ranks III - IV


Belochka, Hikarushka,

Can you help me please as I am abroad and do not have access to this Ukaze :

By Ukaze of Paul I, the French language was officialy established as the language of the Russian Imperial Court and all Court documents, that were not for pure domestic purposes alone, were to be established in these two languages.

Can you please help me find a reference to this Ukaze?  Or the Ukaze itself.  It is well quite known that Paul I was a strong francophile.

I am sure, very politely, that Mike may be not correct in his assertion that French was never officially established as the Court Language.

Thank you for your translation.

Can we know consider the Slavonic origins of the word, etymologically speaking, instead of a direct translation?

Thanks to all.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2005, 02:37:26 AM »
The term derives from Voshodyashii = ascending




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Offline Belochka

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2005, 02:41:58 AM »
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Can you help me please as I am abroad and do not have access to this Ukaze :

By Ukaze of Paul I, the French language was officialy established as the language of the Russian Imperial Court and all Court documents, that were not for pure domestic purposes alone, were to be established in these two languages.

Can you please help me find a reference to this Ukaze?  Or the Ukaze itself.


Hi AlexP,

I shall have to refer to my personal library which may take some time to sift through. I am sure I have something of interest to you.  :)




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AlexP

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2005, 02:59:46 AM »
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Hi AlexP,

I shall have to refer to my personal library which may take some time to sift through. I am sure I have something of interest to you.  :)




Belochka,

Thank you on two counts.

First for the etymological origins of the word -- I do not have my Church Slavonic dictionary here.

With your kind help in mind, I would you and David and Hikarushka if this title really does equate to "Your Excellency"?  I am not sure.

I am not a scholar of Latin and we need to learn what the Latin origins of excellency are :  I am aware of the "ex" "out of" but I am not sure of the "celle", "cellos", is from the "caelus", sky?  But I am not a Latin scholar again and seek help.

Thank you for your assistance with the Ukaze of Paul 1.  I have the date, if you need it.

Regards from Shanghai,

Alexander Alexandrovitch


Offline Belochka

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2005, 04:15:35 AM »
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Thank you for your assistance with the Ukaze of Paul 1.  I have the date, if you need it.


Hi AlexP,

Thanks, but the date of the Ukaz is not a problem.

With regard to Latin definitions, my Latin dictionary states that caelum = heavens, the air

However the term celsum = elevated or haughty.

Hence the English term of "Excellency" seems quite appropriate.

Trust this helps! :)


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Offline hikaru

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2005, 04:20:52 AM »
According to Lomonosov,
the verb "prevoskhodity" came from " khodity " -  to go
(Alex, you are right ( as usual :D))

As for latin , maybe  the verb  "transcendere" is the equivalent.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2005, 04:47:42 AM »
Certainly khodit = to go; but in this instance the movement must be directed somewhere, and in the example we have been discussing it is "upwards". :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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AlexP

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2005, 06:55:15 AM »
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Certainly khodit = to go; but in this instance the movement must be directed somewhere, and in the example we have been discussing it is "upwards". :)


Hikarushka, Belochka,

Thank you both.

So now we can compare the two terms :

the Russian terms meaning "the person who goes out and up" ;

and the English term "the person who falls out of the sky with a haughty air".

I am just making some humor.

But I think that I would rather choose the Russian meaning.  It is must more .... upwardly mobile ... ha..ha..ha..

Thanks all.

Now the serious title :  When this title first used in Imperial Russia?  Before Peter the Great?  At the time of Catherine the Great?  During the first part of the 19th Century?

Many thanks.

A.A.

Offline Mike

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2005, 07:39:03 AM »
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And frankly, no, the ambassadors were not those who only regularly spoke with the Emperor and Empress.  This assertion is blantantly incorrect.  

It's quite obvious from the context of my post that we were talking about diplomats, and not all the people admitted to the court.

A single documented reference to some foreign diplomat (not a head of mission,  permanent or acting) ever engaged in a conversation with a Russian emperor from Alexander II to Nicholas II would convince me that my assertion was not completely correct. And even then "blatant" seems to me a bit too strong choice of words.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2005, 08:03:35 AM »
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When this title first used in Imperial Russia?  Before Peter the Great?  At the time of Catherine the Great?  During the first part of the 19th Century?

Many thanks.

A.A.


The titles followed after Peter I devised the Tabel' o Rangah (Table of Ranks) 24 January 1722.

His intention was to consolidate the Russian nobility. This mechanism also served to strengthen his autocratic rule.

It was claimed that during Paul I's reign "everything depended on rank ..." [Ref: Murashev, p 62]


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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2005, 08:20:51 AM »
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It's quite obvious from the context of my post that we were talking about diplomats, and not all the people admitted to the court.

A single documented reference to some foreign diplomat (not a head of mission,  permanent or acting) ever engaged in a conversation with a Russian emperor from Alexander II to Nicholas II would convince me that my assertion was not completely correct. And even then "blatant" seems to me a bit too strong choice of words.



Mihkail,

You are misquoting.  Please reread my postings.  Your postings are very informative but I always do not agree with them.

The "blatant" was referring to your statement that French was not the language of the Court.

First, we engaged a discussion as to whether or not French was the de jure or the de facto language of the Court.

Then a friend of mine in Moscow at the Moscow Institute of International Relations suggested that French had been made the language of the Court by an Ukaze rendered by Paul I in the very early part of his very short reign and my friend has provided me with the date on which he believes the Ukaze was rendered.

As I wish to contest your point, since based on family memories I can assure you that French was used at the Court in most cases equal to or greater than Russian by the "dvoriatsvo", the Dowager Empress and her suite, the Emperor to a certain degree, and by the Empress hardly at all, I have asked others in Russia to locate this Ukaze and then I will publish it here to dispute your point.

You referred to the Apostolic Nuncio in one of your writings and I wrote back saying that I was unaware that Imperial Russia had maintained relations with the Holy See.  I am awaiting your further comments on that issue.  For me, it would be interesting to know since one family member was also Ambassador to Rome before the Revolution and this subject never surfaced.  This point can also be checked in the 1914 Baedeker which lists all of the Missions in St. Petersburg.

Belochka or Hirakushka, can you help me here?  Do either of you have a listing of the accredited diplomatic missions in St. Petersburg, 1914?  Are you either of you aware of whether or not the Holy See had separate diplomatic relations with the Imperial Russian Court as Mike indirectly alludes to?


Additionally, you wrote that "only ambassadors enjoyed the privilege of regularly speaking with the Emperor and the Empress" and I strongly disputed that point, and asked you to comment on the Receiving Schedule for a given day, taking into account the Court Circular, the discussion of which will show one or the other received many, many people in Tsarkoe Selo, and the Empress in particular, which is a credit that is often denied her.


I asked you, and I ask again, and I ask Hikarushka, and Belochka in your opinions who would have been received in the morning, who would have been received in the afternoon and who would have been received at tea?


I am quite not honestly not trolling, I will share my personal knowledge once I learn what others think.  We will compare oral history to written history, it is only fair.

All of this is very interesting.  Thank you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AlexP »

Offline hikaru

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2005, 09:25:25 AM »
In the morning, he Nicholas had usual 3 raports, plus he could meet some russians on the case.
He usually met with foreigners after lunch (zavtrak)
He met them at about 4 o'clock .


Then at tea and further he met only close things.

As far as I understand.
Pls correct.

AlexP

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Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2005, 09:35:06 AM »
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In the morning, he Nicholas had usual 3 raports, plus he could meet some russians on the case.
He usually met with foreigners after lunch (zavtrak)
He met them at about 4 o'clock .


Then at tea and further he met only close things.

As far as I understand.
Pls correct.



No corrections needed.

Thank you for the kind answer.

Regarding diplomatic relations between the Vatican and Imperial Russia, they didn't exist, I can confirm that, they would not have existed, never, ever, ever, and they barely even exist now between the Russian Republic and the Holy See.

So the reference by Mike to the Apostolic Nuncio leaves me a bit lost.

Regards from Shanghai,

A.A.