Author Topic: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address  (Read 196197 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

hikaru

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #75 on: August 04, 2005, 09:36:30 AM »
Pls see 14 o'clock not 4 in the previous message

As for the Name of Italian Ambassador,
In 1900 year it  was Mr. Marra de Lavriano - General -leutenant . The address of the Italian Ambassy was Moyka 86. Consulate was located on B. Morskaya 48
There were the following ambassies and Diplomatic missions in 1900 at St.-Petersburg:
Austro-Hungary
Argentina
Bawaria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Brazilia
Great Britain
Germany
Greece
Denmark
Spain
Italy
China
Mexica
Monako
Netherlands
Persia
Peru
Portugalia
Romania
Serbia
Shiam
USA
Turkey
France
Sweden and Norway
Swiss
Japan

hikaru

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #76 on: August 04, 2005, 09:39:46 AM »
As for Baedecker of 1914, he refers only to 2  Embassies: Great Britain and United States of America

hikaru

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #77 on: August 04, 2005, 09:50:19 AM »
I have the text of tseremonial of reception of foreigh Ambassadors etc. of 1827.
Do somebody know , was it changed later?
Or it was without the changes.

No any references about the language in the text.
Maybe in 1827 , it was french, and no cfm was needed?

Offline Mike

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1326
    • View Profile
    • Erast Fandorin Museum
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #78 on: August 04, 2005, 10:00:58 AM »
Quote
You are misquoting.  ... The "blatant" was referring to your statement that French was not the language of the Court.

No, I was quoting you exactly:
Quote
And frankly, no, the ambassadors were not those who only regularly spoke with the Emperor and Empress.  This assertion is blantantly incorrect.

So you were referring to those who regularly spoke with the emperor, and not to whether French was an official court language (which it was not since Nicholas I).

Quote
You referred to the Apostolic Nuncio in one of your writings and I wrote back saying that I was unaware that Imperial Russia had maintained relations with the Holy See.  I am awaiting your further comments on that issue.  

Imperial Russia maintained diplomatic relations with the Holy See since 1884 till the end in 1917. Alexander Izvol'sky was the first Russian minister-resident at the court of Leo XIII. He was later replaced by Alexander Nelidov. While there was no permanent nunciature in Petersburg after 1804, its possibility was periodically discussed, and in 1897 Leo XIII even chose Monsignor Tarnassi for this post.

AlexP

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #79 on: August 04, 2005, 10:28:08 AM »
Quote
No, I was quoting you exactly:
So you were referring to those who regularly spoke with the emperor, and not to whether French was an official court language (which it was not since Nicholas I).

Imperial Russia maintained diplomatic relations with the Holy See since 1884 till the end in 1917. Alexander Izvol'sky was the first Russian minister-resident at the court of Leo XIII. He was later replaced by Alexander Nelidov. While there was no permanent nunciature in Petersburg after 1804, its possibility was periodically discussed, and in 1897 Leo XIII even chose Monsignor Tarnassi for this post.


Michael,

I am sorry but I  have asked my friend in Moscow at MGIMO to check this in detail.  It is his understanding, and my understanding, that the Russian Minister to the Kingdom of Italy was also accredited, which is different than assigned or attached, to the Holy See and that were not separate ambassadorial staffings for the two.  Perhaps you might have meant that Imperial Russia maintained diplomatic representation in Rome to the Kingdom of Italy, with the Imperial Russian Ambassador also accredited to the Holy See.  Those are two very big diplomatic differences.

You have confirmed what I have said : that there was no Nunciature in Petersburg, nor would there have been.  Pobedenestov, in his Synodal Capacity, nor Protopopov, would have ever allowed that.  Baedeker 1914 also provides no listing of an Apostolic Nunciature.  Thus, your comments on the Emperor speaking French to the Apostolic Nuncio are perhaps moot.  Addtionally, the intellectual battles between the slavophiles and the occidentalists were also raging strongly at this point, and in most quarters, the slavophiles were in full control, except of course in terms of the high "dvoriantvo".

Thank you for the information about Monsignor Tarnassi.  While the Pope may have contemplated his nomination, it still would have been subjected to the approval of the Foreign Minister, and in all reality, the Emperor, and this would have not happened.  The presence of an Apostolic Nuncio would have only served to enflame the Polish question and that is one thing no one, but one wished in Petersburg.

Initially you wrote that French had been never the Official Language of the Court, a fact which I vigorously disputed, and now you have qualified that with "not since 1801", presumably you mean when Alexander I purportedly overturned the Ukasze of Paul I.  That does not remove the de jure issue of French as the court language by any means.  But in 1801 the Russian language was established as a Court language, I am not sure it was established as "the" unique Court language.

Among other pieces that easily prove this, I draw your attention to the Court Funeral Notice of Alexander III on this very site.

With all of the very best from Shanghai, and I hope things are going well in Israel, while praying for the peace of the entire world,

Alexander Alexandrovitch P.

AlexP

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #80 on: August 04, 2005, 10:32:48 AM »
Quote
I have the text of tseremonial of reception of foreigh Ambassadors etc. of 1827.
Do somebody know , was it changed later?
Or it was without the changes.

No any references about the language in the text.
Maybe in 1827 , it was french, and no cfm was needed?


Hikarushka,

Please, what is a "cfm".  I just noticed this informative post.

Can you e-mail me the text of the ceremonial? It is written in Russian?  In French?  In both?

What titles are used for the Ambassadors?

I would be very interested to see this text.

Regards,


Alexander Alexandrovitch

P.S.  Your work appears to be interesting to me.  Let's change -- you come to Shanghai and I'll go to Moscow.

AlexP

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #81 on: August 04, 2005, 10:38:56 AM »
Quote
Pls see 14 o'clock not 4 in the previous message

As for the Name of Italian Ambassador,
In 1900 year it  was Mr. Marra de Lavriano - General -leutenant . The address of the Italian Ambassy was Moyka 86. Consulate was located on B. Morskaya 48
There were the following ambassies and Diplomatic missions in 1900 at St.-Petersburg:
Austro-Hungary
Argentina
Bawaria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Brazilia
Great Britain
Germany
Greece
Denmark
Spain
Italy
China
Mexica
Monako
Netherlands
Persia
Peru
Portugalia
Romania
Serbia
Shiam
USA
Turkey
France
Sweden and Norway
Swiss
Japan



Hikarushka,

Thank you again for an excellent job.

I understood that you meant 14h00 in your original post.  It was obvious.  And a very well done job.  What I appreciated is that you clearly delineated when internal affairs were discussed, when Russians were received, when lunch was served, and when the Foreign Ambassadors were received.

Thank you for your list of the Embassies, again an excellent job and something that I could not have done here in Shanghai.

It bears out my point that no Apostolic Nunciature existed and no Apostolic Nuncio was "en poste".

As I wrote Mikhail in Israel, Pobedenostov would have caused the entire Northern Fleet to set sail if that had happened.

With warm regards from Shanghai,

A.A.

hikaru

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #82 on: August 04, 2005, 10:56:51 AM »
cfm is confirmation.
Ceremonial is in russian - in pure russian , where they use only one word - poslannik  - for everybody.
I have no french equivalent, but I suppose that it must exist.

I am  intresting, was it changed in the Nicholas times ot it remained without any changes  - like court dress?

hikaru

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #83 on: August 04, 2005, 11:17:03 AM »
It is quite funny!
I have checked French Baedecker of 1902 : it gives to us more ifm that English one :
In French edition , we can see the following Ambassies and cosulate:
De France
D'Anglettere
De Belgique
D, Espagne
Des Etas-Unis
D'Italy
Des Pays-Bas
De Roumanie
De Suede and Norvege
De Suisse

Does it mean ,that english speaking countries did not care about others?  :D :P :) ( It is a joke)

hikaru

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #84 on: August 04, 2005, 11:19:56 AM »
Of course , it means that  the quantity of  french speaking people  was much more than one of the english speaking people .
So , we could call  20 th century of an English century.

Offline Mike

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1326
    • View Profile
    • Erast Fandorin Museum
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #85 on: August 04, 2005, 11:22:00 AM »
Alex, it would really make things simpler if you read and quote my posts more carefully.
This is what I've said about papal nuncio:
Quote
The only possible exception could be made for a papal nuncio, using Latin.

Does it imply that such an exception was actually made and a nuncio was stationed in Petersburg?...

As to the French language, you wrote:
Quote
Initially you wrote that French had been never the Official Language of the Court

Please re-read my post, and you'll find no "had been never", only "was not" - which makes a great difference since we're talking here about a certain period of time.

On the issue of diplomatic relations, they either exist between a pair of countries or they don't. In the former case there could be various forms of representation.  For example, China established diplomatic relations with Antigua and Barbuda in 1983, but there is neither Antiguan embassy in Beijing  nor Chinese embassy in Saint John's.  

Finally, thank you for asking whether things are going well in Israel. To the best of my knowledge, they do.

georgecl

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #86 on: August 04, 2005, 11:58:23 AM »
HI
I've been following this thread..Great stuff.. :D

I think I've posted this before.  But my Grandmothers first Husband was a diplomat in Moscow at the end of the Imperial Russian Empire and after..
He was of Chinese decent raised in Russia..They both spoke French, English and of course Russian.

This is his calling card using French as his introduction.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/georgecl/Yuri%20photos/Yuricard.jpg
Thanks
George
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by georgecl »

hikaru

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #87 on: August 04, 2005, 12:32:08 PM »
I have one puzzle, I have just thought about it :

I have read in the information list of the of 1902 that Japanese Head of Mission Mr. Kurino could speak English but he almost  could not  speak French,  only a little.

In the Xenia 's Diary of the 1st January 1904 , it is written that Everybody with interest saw how Niki had a conversation with the Japanese (with Mr. Kurino) .Mr.Kurino also met a lot of time with Witte.

The question is : what language they used?

Maybe Mr. Kurino impoved his French being in Russia?

I would like to know ( if it is possible)  if there were some restrictions or severe rules about Language usage during official reception such as New Year Reception of Diplomatic corpus?

Or Nicholas choose the language according the possibility of the partner?
The point is that all official letters between Russian's Ministries and Embassies located in  Russia were in French.

Maybe somebody has some examples or memoirs?
Thank you

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #88 on: August 04, 2005, 12:41:02 PM »
Hikaru,
The "Diplomat's Handbook for Russia" published in English in 1896 by the Imperial Ministry for the use of the diplomatic corps from English speaking countrie sets for the proper forms of address and title to the Imperial Family in English:
"(After the Emperor and Empress) The next position in the line of the members of the Imperial House belongs to the Heir Apparent of the throne, and to his wife. He bears the title of Heir-Apparent Cesarevitch, Grand Duke, and Imperial Highness. The wife of the Heir-Apparent is called Cesarevna and Grand Duchess, her title being Imperial Highness.

Then follow, firstly the Emperor's sons, daughters and grandchildren (children of his sons); they enjoy the title of Grand Duke, Grand Duchess, and Imperial Highness. Secondly, the great grandchildren of the Emperor in the male line, and all the senior male descendants of the great grandsons, ie: the eldest sons, etc.; they have the title of Prince and Princess of Imperial Blood and Highness. And at length, thirdly all the remaining members of the Imperial House, consequently the younger sons and daughters of the great grandsons etc., are all entitled to the calling of Princes of the Imperial blood, but with the title of Serenissime."

Ambassador Francis reports that his meetings with Nicholas were always held in "impeccible" English and the usual New Years Day exchanges with the staff of the US Embassy in Petrograd and Nicholas were always entirely in English as well.

hikaru

  • Guest
Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
« Reply #89 on: August 04, 2005, 12:46:57 PM »
Thank you very much.
Please say something more.
Was there in this handbook something about the
language usage?
And about the audience rules?