Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address

[Forum Admin]

Also,
Ambassador Francis reports that on the New Years' reception for 1916, Nicholas spoke English only to the English and US delegations, French to the   French, Italian and Spanish delegations.  He then says that Nicholas went on to the Japanese delegation, speaking to them for 15 mintues, but he doesn't say in what language!

I will go find the Handbook in Bob's library and look thru it for your answers.

Edited: The Handbook does not answer your questions, sadly. We only have volume 1 of 2, never able to find volume 2, so perhaps the answer is there.

[Forum Admin]

In 1896, The Handbook says:

"The foreign institutions of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs consist of embassies and missions and consulates.  The first two are for political relations, the last chiefly for commercial and economic matters.  Permanent representatives of Russia in foreign states date only from Peter the Great.  At present there are embassies in Austria, Great Britain, the German Empire, France, Italy and Turkey; their chiefs are called ambassadors (extraordinary and plenipotentiary) and they alone are considered as representatives of the Person of His Imperial Majesty.

In other countries Russia has missions, under the management of extraordinary  and plenipotentiary ministers, resident ministers, political agents and charges d'affaires. "

[Mike]

Ambassador Francis reports that his meetings with Nicholas were always held in "impeccible" English

Nicholas was known to prefer English over French whenever the situation permitted (apparently because English was the language spoken between him and Alix). Since it was always him who decided when and with whom to start a conversation, the decision to use English was also entirely his and not his English-speaking conversation partners'.

[AlexP]

It is quite funny!
I have checked French Baedecker of 1902 : it gives to us more ifm that English one :
In French edition , we can see the following Ambassies and cosulate:
De France
D'Anglettere
De Belgique
D, Espagne
Des Etas-Unis
D'Italy
Des Pays-Bas
De Roumanie
De Suede and Norvege
De Suisse

Does it mean ,that english speaking countries did not care about others?   ( It is a joke)

This is one point that I was going to make last night...but it got late in Shanghai and I was tired.

Look at the list of Embassies in the respective French, German and English editions of the 1914 Baedeker and you will find them all very, very different....

except for the fact that nowhere is there a listing of the Holy See.

[Belochka]

As for Baedecker of 1914, he refers only to 2  Embassies: Great Britain and United States of America

A possible explanation why the 1914 English language Baedecker was narrowed down to only two entries may be attributed to the fact that the majority of Engish speaking travellers originated from those two countries.

[hikaru]

But it is quite unjust : in French edition there are Angletter and Les Etat-Unis but in English edition ,
there are only Great Britain and United States.
Do not you think so?    

[hikaru]

Forum Admin !
Thank you very very much for  the kind investigation.
I never saw this Handbook. Will try to get it.

[Sarushka]

Here's another one for those of you who know Russian language and culture better than I:

I know Russian uses both formal and informal pronouns. I'm wondering which forms OTMAA would have used in addressing non-royals, such as the many soldiers they had contact with from 1914-1918. In know that generally, a young person addressing someone older would use the formal pronoun. But I don't know if their rank as Tsesarevich or Grand Duchess would take precedence and require them to use the informal. Then there's the whole issue of how unaffected they were by their position in society, which leaves me totally flummoxed!

Sm

[hikaru]

In one modern Encyclopedia called  " the Court of Russian Emperors" I have found the list of the Courts of the Russian Imperial House ( on the situation of 1st January 1914) - Maybe it is from such Handbook?
If FA want, I could fax it. ( I do not think that it could be problem, because this is 1914)
From the list, I have understood that the Number of Ladies- of - Waiting were a few.
I could count them:
Marie Feodorovna -  Countess Geiden, Countess Mengden

Alexandra Feodorovna - Hofmeisterine - Naryshkina,
Lady - In - Waiting - Duchess Obolenskaya, Duchess Jambakurian-Orbeliani, Byutsova
Special Lady -Countess Hendrikova

Maria Pavlovna - Hofmeisterine - Countess Shuvalova,
Lady - in - Waiting  - Oliv
Special lady-in-waiting - countess Gagarina

Cirill Vladimirovich 's Court:
Hofmeisterina of Viktoria Ph. -  widow of the naval subcolonel Durnovo

Court of GD Konstantin K.:
Hofmeisterina of Elizaveta Mavrikievna - Baronesse Korf L.K.
Lady - in -Waiting - Baronesse Korf S.N.


GD Nikolay Nikolaevich's Court:
Lady - in -Waiting of Anastasiya Nikolaevna - Peterson A.K.

Court of GD Pyotr Nikolaevich :
Lady- in - Waiting of Militsa Nikolaevna - Pushkina A.A.

Court of GD GEorgy Mikhaylovich
Special lady of Maria Georgievna - Philosofova O.N.

Court of GD Alexandr Mikhaylovich
Lady-in- Waiting of Xenia  Alexandrovna - Evreinova S.D.
Lady-in -Waiting of Irina Alexandrovna - Countess Komarovskaya E.L.

Court of GD Olyga Alexandrovna
Lady -in-Waiting - Duchess Gagarina E.S.

[hikaru]

I have  a copy of letter that one of my grand grand grand grand fathers wrote to Nicholas I ( 1837)
The writing form of the Nicholas's title sounds very intresting:
Vsepresvetleyshy, Derzavneyshy, Veliky Gosudary Imperator Nikolay Pavlovich Samoderzets Vserossiysky Gosudary Vsemilosteiveishy

( I am unable to translate it )
Oral title and writing title were different .
But it seems that the writing form became more simple in the beginning of the 20th century. Or not?

[David_Pritchard]

I have  a copy of letter that one of my grand grand grand grand fathers wrote to Nicholas I ( 1837)
The writing form of the Nicholas's title sounds very intresting:
 Vsepresvetleyshy, Derzavneyshy, Veliky Gosudary Imperator Nikolay Pavlovich Samoderzets Vserossiysky Gosudary Vsemilosteiveishy

( I am unable to translate it )
Oral title and writing title were different .
But it seems that the writing form became more simple in the beginning of the 20th century. Or not?

Dear Hikaru,

I do not know the first word Vsepresvetleyshy but I have transliterated the rest of the style into proper English as follows:

Omnipotent Great Sovereign Emperor Nikolai Pavlovich, Autocrat of all the Russias, Most Merciful Sovereign

David

[hikaru]

Vspresvetleishy
is something like : The most enlightful.

[AlexP]

In one modern Encyclopedia called  " the Court of Russian Emperors" I have found the list of the Courts of the Russian Imperial House ( on the situation of 1st January 1914) - Maybe it is from such Handbook?
If FA want, I could fax it. ( I do not think that it could be problem, because this is 1914)
From the list, I have understood that the Number of Ladies- of - Waiting were a few.
I could count them:
 Marie Feodorovna -  Countess Geiden, Countess Mengden

Alexandra Feodorovna - Hofmeisterine - Naryshkina,
Lady - In - Waiting - Duchess Obolenskaya, Duchess Jambakurian-Orbeliani, Byutsova
Special Lady -Countess Hendrikova

Maria Pavlovna - Hofmeisterine - Countess Shuvalova,
Lady - in - Waiting  - Oliv
Special lady-in-waiting - countess Gagarina

Cirill Vladimirovich 's Court:
Hofmeisterina of Viktoria Ph. -  widow of the naval subcolonel Durnovo

Court of GD Konstantin K.:
Hofmeisterina of Elizaveta Mavrikievna - Baronesse Korf L.K.
Lady - in -Waiting - Baronesse Korf S.N.


GD Nikolay Nikolaevich's Court:
Lady - in -Waiting of Anastasiya Nikolaevna - Peterson A.K.

Court of GD Pyotr Nikolaevich :
Lady- in - Waiting of Militsa Nikolaevna - Pushkina A.A.

Court of GD GEorgy Mikhaylovich
Special lady of Maria Georgievna - Philosofova O.N.

Court of GD Alexandr Mikhaylovich
Lady-in- Waiting of Xenia  Alexandrovna - Evreinova S.D.
Lady-in -Waiting of Irina Alexandrovna - Countess Komarovskaya E.L.

Court of GD Olyga Alexandrovna
Lady -in-Waiting - Duchess Gagarina E.S.

Hikarushka,

Thank you for this document.  By 1914, Mme Orbeliani was quite ill and also the Empress and Mme Obolensky were "refroidies".

You may wish to check another source as the Dowager Empress had four ladies-in-waiting, not only two, in addition to which she had her Private Secretary, etc., etc.

Your source is quite correct in terms of Marie Pavlovna, exept I do not believe it was this "Mme Oliv" to whom you referred.  Additionally, Mme Pavlovna had two ladies-in-waiting, not one.

If you have access to the Court Circular for Tsarkoe Selo wherein it lists whom the Empress received and with whom, you will see be able to determine more clearly.  I am sure from friends in Moscow that this Court Circular has served.

Extremely helpful.

[AlexP]

Dear Hikaru,

I do not know the first word Vsepresvetleyshy[/i] but I have transliterated the rest of the style into proper English as follows:

Omnipotent Great Sovereign Emperor Nikolai Pavlovich, Autocrat of all the Russias, Most Merciful Sovereign

David

Dear David, Dear Hikaru:

"Most Illumined" but then again David, I will leave the exact English rendering to you...

[AlexP]

I have  a copy of letter that one of my grand grand grand grand fathers wrote to Nicholas I ( 1837)
The writing form of the Nicholas's title sounds very intresting:
 Vsepresvetleyshy, Derzavneyshy, Veliky Gosudary Imperator Nikolay Pavlovich Samoderzets Vserossiysky Gosudary Vsemilosteiveishy

( I am unable to translate it )
Oral title and writing title were different .
But it seems that the writing form became more simple in the beginning of the 20th century. Or not?

Dear Hikaru,

No, you are correct, this would have been in writing the Tsar until the beginning of the Revolution.  This would have been used, however, by those of a lesser rank than Grand Duke or a Prince of the Royal Blood; a Metropolitan of the Church would have written otherwise.

With kind regards,

A.A.