Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address

[Превед]

All good :-)
I think our best bet to find an answer is in a roman courtois with lots of dialogue, written by an insider.

There are so many fine nuances and it's even more complicated when you take into account how multilingual these royals were. In German it's for example quite odd that the verb should agree in the plural (pluralis majestatis) with the predicates Majestät, Hoheit, Durchlaucht etc., e.g. Majestät lassen bitten..... And the use of Euer instead of Ihr!

[Kalafrana]

Gordon Brooke-Shepherd's biography of Karl of Austria-Hungary includes a letter he wrote to George V when he was trying to conclude a separate peace. It is in French and begins Majestie..

As it's a long time since I read the book, I can't remember how 'brotherly' the letter was, but Karl had represented the Empire at George V's coronation, so they had met previously.

Ann

[Превед]

So Countess Sophie Chotek was Grafin or Kontesse Sophie in German?

Legally and officially she was Gräfin Sophie Chotek, socially she was Komtesse / Komteß / Komtess Sophie Chotek. NB AFAIK the courtesy title Komtesse usually (only?) applied to the lower, non-immediate nobility. An Erlaucht / Illustrious Highness would usually be styled Gräfin.

In Polish this distinction seems quite ingrained and follows the pattern and suffixes that Polish surnames used to have: A hrabia (count) is married to a hrabina, their daughter is a hrabianka and their (young) son can even be called a hrabicz, analogous to tsar - tsaritsa - tsarevna - tsarevich.

[chintz22]

Hi,

Does anyone know if Marie of Edinburgh (later Queen Marie) would have received any Russian titles since her mother was a Grand Duchess? 

Thanks!

[Forum Admin]

She would have held the Russian title of  Her Highness the Princess of the Imperial Blood as the Granddaughter of the Emperor in the female line, from birth. 

[Превед]

She would have held the Russian title of  Her Highness the Princess of the Imperial Blood as the Granddaughter of the Emperor in the female line, from birth.  

No Russian titles for her, titles did not descend via the female line. She born was Her Royal Highness Princess Marie of Edinburgh, Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duchess of Saxony.

[rasshiva]

I have a question. Praskovya Bruce (Countess) had been "best friend" to Catherine since the 14 year old latter arrived in St Petersburg . They would still be close until and for for many years after Catherine became Czarina. At least until Praskovya blotted her copybook with a putative Catherine "favourite" in the 1770s. My question is:- How would Countess Bruce have addressed Catherine in informal moments. Catherine called her "Brussja" so I am led to believe. This is not an idle question as I am trying to construct a dialogue between them.

[Превед]

I have a question. Praskovya Bruce (Countess) had been "best friend" to Catherine since the 14 year old latter arrived in St Petersburg . They would still be close until and for for many years after Catherine became Czarina. At least until Praskovya blotted her copybook with a putative Catherine "favourite" in the 1770s. My question is:- How would Countess Bruce have addressed Catherine in informal moments. Catherine called her "Brussja" so I am led to believe. This is not an idle question as I am trying to construct a dialogue between them.

Interesting question. I don't have any sources to rely on (you might find something in their published letters?), but if they went back that long I wouldn't be surprised if she adressed Catherine with some of the many Russian pet form of her name (Katya, Katyusha etc.) in informal moments. Remember also that it was very fashionable for lovers and intimate acquintances to adress each other "my heart" / mon cœur etc. in the 17th and 18th centuries. But I would expect her to use more formal forms with other people present, perhaps madame? And in public as Your Majesty.

PS I see in a letter to her brother linked from her Russian Wikipedia article Countess Bruce refers to the Catherine as "Sa Majesté", so no overt informality even in her brother's presence.

[rasshiva]

Many thanks I like the idea about "pet" or diminutive or affectionate modes of address. I feel this informal mode was more likely at least one to one, or with close friends. Casualness does appear to have been encouraged by Catherine if one takes her "rules" or suggestions for acceptable behaviour at her gatherings in the Small Hermitage.

[Joshuades]

I removed all the taxes kept stuff. Now I wonder, what sorts of bonuses should we have for ranks/titles?

[Превед]

Apparently there is a book called "Что непонятно у классиков, или Энциклопедия русского быта XIX века" (What you don’t understand in the classics, or Encyclopedia of Russian daily life in the 19th century), published in 1998 by Yuri Fedosyuk, which could in come in hand for anyone researching the Romanovs and their world. Here is an excerpt about forms of adress which is quite informative and translates well into English with Google Translate.