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Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #180 on: July 28, 2005, 02:22:30 PM »
Me too. Some people have all the luck. Where does one see things like Romanov clothes? (Are they in museums?)

David_Pritchard

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #181 on: July 28, 2005, 03:21:22 PM »
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The fabric is the MOST FRAGILE thing you could preserve in museums. The ideals conditions are about 50% of humidity and 18-20° C. I suppose the Hermiatge have special reserves for its costumes. The ideal is to preserve them lying flat in  large drawers, in the dark (to presrve the colors).You can  pad them a little with some neutral paper without chlorine: it's  against the folds .The folds break literaly the fabric.
Of course some chimical treatments or sewing restoration could be done, but it depends of the museum views. Generally, museum try to avoid most of "big" operations.



Very good post on this subject. Very few people realise how difficult it is to care for histroic artifacts made of fabric.

Silk fabrics from the 19th century can be some of the most difficult to preserve because there were often coloured with chemical dyes containing iron. As the fabric ages, so does the iron in the dye, except in the case of the iron it rusts or more scientifically, it oxidizes making the fabric simply fall to dust in the most extreme cases and in lesser cases subject to tearing with the slightest pressure.

All fabrics of course are at risk to rodent damage (especially in very old palaces with stone foundations) and silverfish damage, wool has the additional enemy of moths. Those of you familiar with Saint Petersburg will know how dusty that it can be. Dust is another enemy of fabric as the dust can make microscopic cuts into the fabric. After many decades let alone a century or more these microscopic cuts can weaken the structural integrity of the fabric.

The most durable fabric in historic clothing collections is linen. It is unfortunate that the use of linen was restricted mainly to undergarments and informal clothing because we would have much larger museum collections today.

I shall stop myself here before I end up writting a few pages more.

DAP

hikaru

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #182 on: July 28, 2005, 03:47:58 PM »
I think that in Armoury in Moscow , they solved the problem of the costumes, because the oldest one is from 13th century.
But It is very intresting.
I also have remembered that alll those 13th century closes used to be stocked in the germeticaly closed sunduki ( some kind of the big wooden box) .
I also remembered that Alix paid a lot of attention ( She was a German Princess) for wardrobe rooms. All her wardrobes were germetically closed too.

Offline Holly

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #183 on: July 29, 2005, 12:11:46 AM »
I saw those at the exihibit in Sante Fe too. But the thing that stands out the nost in my mind is that white and bright pink polka-dotted robe of Alexandra's. I had a hard time believing she would wear it!
"Господь им дал дар по молитвам их размягчать окаменелые наши сердца за их страдания..Мне думается, что если люди будут молиться Царской Cемье, оттают сердца с Божией помощью."

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Offline Martyn

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #184 on: July 29, 2005, 06:34:58 PM »
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I saw those at the exihibit in Sante Fe too. But the thing that stands out the nost in my mind is that white and bright pink polka-dotted robe of Alexandra's. I had a hard time believing she would wear it!



I don't think that I have ever seen this garment.  Sounds intriguing though.....

Does anyone have a picture of it?  Is it a peignoir or wrapper?
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV

AlexP

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #185 on: August 05, 2005, 07:29:51 PM »
The wearing of gloves in Imperial Russia was perhaps a little different than the customs in the west.

First, there was a difference between when and where long and short gloves were worn.

There was a difference between when and where they were kept on.

1.  The Imperial Family, the nobility and proper society would wear "short gloves" to church or attend any form of a religious service.

    However, once in church, the RIGHT glove was removed and held in the palm of the left hand.   This was done because one could not cross oneself's with a gloved right hand.

    If the Empress or a Mme in the nobility and or of proper society were to take Communion in Church, than prior to Communion, both gloves were removed and given to the Lady-in-Waiting.

    They were only put back on again after the Final Blessing.

2.  At a reception, a ball, etc., long gloves were de rigueur.  Yes, these gloves had finger flaps, it is true.  If there were a receiving line, for example, if the Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna received in a receiving line, if, for some reason she extended her hand to a Mme, than it was imperative that the Mme quickly remove her right glove.  It was considered perfidious to offer a gloved hand to an ungloved hand, and the like.

    This did not occur with Their Majesties because one did not touch Their Majesties, except for the Pascal Greetings on Pasca and on the week following Pasca.

     The gloves remained on at dinner, with the finger flaps gently drawn back.

3.  In the movies and in modern society, gloves can be seen matching the color of the dress.  This is pure fiction.  The gloves were white, except for a person in deep mourning, when they would have been black.  A respectable woman would have never worn red or pink gloves.


Finelly

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #186 on: August 06, 2005, 02:31:00 AM »
It wasn't just in Europe.  One of my grandfathers was raised in Pennsylvania and his mother dressed him in dresses with long banana curls all over his head until he was 3......I have a photo and he looks VERY girly!

Thank goodness, he grew up to be a basketball player!

Offline Martyn

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #187 on: August 06, 2005, 05:30:49 AM »
Thank you very much for that information Alex - I have to add that I didn't know some of that!

Very good point about coloured gloves, and spot on.  Uniformly white, except for mourning......
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV

AlexP

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #188 on: August 06, 2005, 07:04:06 AM »
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Thank you very much for that information Alex - I have to add that I didn't know some of that!

Very good point about coloured gloves, and spot on.  Uniformly white, except for mourning......


Thank you very much Martyn for your kind words.

Offline Martyn

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #189 on: August 08, 2005, 05:48:01 PM »
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Thank you very much Martyn for your kind words.



Really, my pleasure Alex.

It is wonderful to encounter someone who has such an in-depth knowledge of a sartorial subject, perhaps small in the greater scheme of things, but  a vital detail nonetheless to those of us who feebly attempt to recreate that lost world in matters of dress.

I hope that you will continue to share with us your extensive knowledge of such matters, in other discussions.......

Thank you once again for clarifying that matter.
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV

AlexP

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #190 on: August 08, 2005, 08:59:50 PM »
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Really, my pleasure Alex.

It is wonderful to encounter someone who has such an in-depth knowledge of a sartorial subject, perhaps small in the greater scheme of things, but  a vital detail nonetheless to those of us who feebly attempt to recreate that lost world in matters of dress.

I hope that you will continue to share with us your extensive knowledge of such matters, in other discussions.......

Thank you once again for clarifying that matter.


Again, thank you, Martyn, it is indeed small today in the small in the scheme of things..

But consider then, in Imperial Russia.  Let's say my someone of good society but so knowledge, maybe someone who just "arrived", would have actually been invited to an "A" list party.  The  "newly arrived" attends the Party, a Grand Duchess extended her ungloved right hand to her (she would extend her cheek by any means) and the "newly arrived' offers the Grand Duchess a gloved hand.  The "newly arrived" would have been greeted ... and exited ... in all of about 10 minutes, never to return.   That's how things have changed in one hundred years.



pinklady

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #191 on: August 09, 2005, 07:19:19 AM »
I see nothing wrong with wearing a bright pink polka dotted robe!
I want one  ;D

AlexP

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #192 on: August 09, 2005, 08:27:04 AM »
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I see nothing wrong with wearing a bright pink polka dotted robe!
I want one  ;D


Tsaria,

Indeed I am envious of you.  You are very fortunate.

If I could share with some other information with you, which I know, in respect of the day-clothes of The Grand Duchesses.

Four times a year, regularly for every year from about 1907 until 1914, the Empress would order the clothes of the Grand Duchesses from La Maison Worth in Paris.  La Maison Worth was an exceptionally elegant, but clean-lines, contrasting colors kind of elegance, devoid of so much of the English-inspired Victorian frou-frou.

La Maison Worth was located at the very prestigious 7, rue de la Paix and was founded in 1858 by Frederic Worth.  As a testimony to its greatness, it lasted until the Germans occupied Paris in 1940.  His progeniture were one of the few couturiers that would not colloaborates "avec les Bosches".  To this day, his top-of-the-line perfume, entitled "Je Reviens" is still sold on the market.  It is a light, air, fragrance.

In any cases, four times a year, a considerable amount of gold roubles were transferred to the Imperial Russian Embassy in Paris for the purchases of day-clothes for the Grand Duchesses and in some case the Empress herself.  It is always easy to tell when the Empress is wearing a Worth creation, as it is with the Grand Duchesses.  For the Grand Duchesses, everything was ordered the same and the measurements were always transmitted in the Diplomatic Pouch.  The task was delicate enough the befell the wife of the Russian Ambassador in Paris.  If she blabbed about the amount of money involved, her husband would have lost his job.  He knew that and she knew that.

Worth was not a cheap couturier by any means.  He designed and developed a quality line and charged and was paid for a quality-line.  It was truly a classic-line, one that favored pastel colors, but clean ones, and contrasting ones.

The ordering only stop in 1914 with both the advent of the war and tenuousness of the Emperor's position.  The amounts spent on clothes were considerable, in spite of what many report about Alexandra's frugality.

Please look at several of the simple-lined summer dresses of the Empress, particularly the white ones.  If the label remains in it, you will see that it says "Worth - Paris".

Regards from Shanghai,


A.A.

Finelly

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #193 on: August 09, 2005, 01:49:08 PM »
From "The Last Empress":

"Alexandra disappointed many in the capital, for her fashion sense left something to be desired in the eyes of society.  She dressed for her own comfort, and though she patronized the most pretigious courturiers of the day, she took little interest in current trends.  Each season, she ordered fifty new dresses from Paquin or Worth in Paris.  Alexandra constantly made additions to her wardrobe when she found a gown whose style she particularly liked; as a result, the trar paid clothing bills of up to 10,000 rubles a month.  When she married, her entire trousseau consisted of mourning and half-mourning clothes, so that she came to the throne with no clothing appropriate to her station.  Alexandra favored flowing silk dresses of white, cream or mauve, covered in lace and worn with large, wide-brimmed hats trimmed with ostrich feathers made by Bertrands, a French firm which had an outlet in St. Petersburg.  Her stockings of sil and lace were manufactured by Swears and Wells in London.  He shoes were low-heeled, in suede and leather and she always carried a parasol for protection against the sun.  She disliked many of the famous fashions of the day, finding the "hobble skirts" an impossible nuisance.....

"....Along with the clothing from Paris, Alexandra also ordered gowns from the capital's leading fashion queen, Madame Brissac, who made a huge fortune from th eoutrageous prices she charged her clients."

Much of the source for the above came from the statements of the Tsarina's first maid, Marie Mouchenow.  It's pretty obvious that if Alexandra was frugal, it was about something other than wardrobe!

AlexP

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Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
« Reply #194 on: August 09, 2005, 10:11:19 PM »
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From "The Last Empress":

"Alexandra disappointed many in the capital, for her fashion sense left something to be desired in the eyes of society.  She dressed for her own comfort, and though she patronized the most pretigious courturiers of the day, she took little interest in current trends.  Each season, she ordered fifty new dresses from Paquin or Worth in Paris.  Alexandra constantly made additions to her wardrobe when she found a gown whose style she particularly liked; as a result, the trar paid clothing bills of up to 10,000 rubles a month.  When she married, her entire trousseau consisted of mourning and half-mourning clothes, so that she came to the throne with no clothing appropriate to her station.  Alexandra favored flowing silk dresses of white, cream or mauve, covered in lace and worn with large, wide-brimmed hats trimmed with ostrich feathers made by Bertrands, a French firm which had an outlet in St. Petersburg.  Her stockings of sil and lace were manufactured by Swears and Wells in London.  He shoes were low-heeled, in suede and leather and she always carried a parasol for protection against the sun.  She disliked many of the famous fashions of the day, finding the "hobble skirts" an impossible nuisance.....

"....Along with the clothing from Paris, Alexandra also ordered gowns from the capital's leading fashion queen, Madame Brissac, who made a huge fortune from th eoutrageous prices she charged her clients."

Much of the source for the above came from the statements of the Tsarina's first maid, Marie Mouchenow.  It's pretty obvious that if Alexandra was frugal, it was about something other than wardrobe!


Without admitting or denying the veracity of the above-quoted postings by the above-referenced poster or posteress, let's consider:

10,000 gold rubles in 1910 equaled 10,000 British pounds.  They were on a par that year.

And in 1910, one British pound sterling equaled 10 United States dollars.

Thus, the maid has asserted that in 1910, where a Rolly-Royce cost less than USD 10,000, the Empress was spending USD 100,000.00 per month on clothes?  USD 1,200,000 a year in clothes in 1910?  Does anyone on this site realize that for USD 1,200,00 a year in 1910 the Empress most likely could have bought every haute couture dress produced in Paris?

Does anyone NOT see the spuriousness of these figures?