Author Topic: Restitution?  (Read 40832 times)

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sistrion

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Restitution?
« on: May 25, 2006, 06:50:12 PM »
Someone knows is it would be possible for Ksenia Sfiris, according to the Russian laws, to be handovered an part of her Grandfather's fortune?


Johnny

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Re: Restitution?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2006, 07:21:15 PM »
That would be nice. If such rules existed my family would become rich again overnight. The palace where my father's aunt lived was turned into a summer resort where Stalin himself spent his vacations.
Restitution? It will never happen in Russia.

james_h

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Re: Restitution?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2006, 02:35:35 AM »
Nor should it.

It's an incredibly complex senario. Though not Russian my ancestors had slaves and we don't expect compensation from the british government for financial restitution suffered from the emancipation. It's wealth created by the almost unbelievable suffering of others.  State contracts, as is the case of the Yusupov's, from being awarded through close proximity from the tsar. The entire system belongs in the historical dust bin.

The financial reality of restitution for merely five Russian dynasties (ie. Yusupov, Sheremetev, Abamelek-Lazerev etc...) would cripple Russia for centuries. Full restitution would empty Russia's museums. Restitution of land would give most of Russia's territories back to what amounts to ideological and cultural foreigners. Too many Russians have died/lived in misery/or been exploited for the benefit of few over the last several centuries. Don't, through an ill thought out sense of romantic idealisation, belittle the reality of the much maligned populace of the land of Russ.


P.S. The lost of slave labor is a financial blow we've yet to recover from....and rightly so?

sistrion

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Re: Restitution?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2006, 04:57:59 AM »
When I was speaking about restitution, I meant the assets owned in 1917. And no any slaves belonged to the Yussupov since 1862.

But as We know that Zenaida Yussupova has nether firmed a renunciation to her fortune as the Bolshevics asked to many famillies to let them leavel (the Sheremetiev did). More, the Yussupov familly has never bitrayed Russia with for example Prince Felix Felixovitsh's attitude in Paris towards Nazis proponals. So, the Russian Government has actually no legal basis to oppose a restitution.

Off course, it would be impossible to handover thindgs as the Moika and Nievski palaces in Petersburg or chefd'oeuvres conserved in the Ermitage Musieum. But estate as Arkhangelskoe, the Yussupov Datcha on Ielaginski Island or even Koreiz can be part of a kind of transaction. That kind of things happened in the Baltic countries with the assets of German aristocrates.

sistrion

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Re: Restitution?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2006, 04:00:25 PM »
That is true but this article deals with a little wooden house in Moscow. I am afraid that Youssoupoff's estates were or are quite differents....

If you are Russian, you must have read that Countess Kcenia Sfiris gave a letter asking for a part of her grand father's fortune in the hand of president Putin. And he refused a transaction. I just would like to know if someone know what is the juridic base of this refusal.

sistrion

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Re: Restitution?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2006, 04:29:38 PM »

Vassili_Vorontsoff

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Re: Restitution?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2006, 05:29:02 PM »
I did not know about the letter of Ksenia Sfiris...

First of all I think it woud be more legal to restitute estates to their "legal" owners but on the other hand, could they restore their palace (does they have enough financial mean?)?Giving all this properties to oligarchs is not in my view  the best thing to do indeed,what assure  that they will respect the original architecture. of those historical buildings I'm persuated that they will restore it but probably they would "produce "palaces fake...

Besides,LUKOIL HAD PROMISED TO RESTORE the Tanishev palace on the English embarkdement in ST Petersbourg, nevertheless they have not make it! It's a shame !

In my view there is no juridic basis for restoration in russia indeed thanks of the political changes in  Russia laws changes a lot and they could assert that what used to be done in th tsarist state is now illegal...it's a vicious cercle!

Vassili_Vorontsoff

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Re: Restitution?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2006, 05:43:21 PM »
I want to ask 2 things:Sistrion, I'm sorry I can't read a line of russian(I'll study it in september)would you be kind to translate it into english?Thanks in advance int he name of all the non russian speakers...

Johnny,I want to know if old assets or palaces of your family would be gave back will you go back into Russia?

Vassili

P.s:I'm really looking after a shot of the palace belonged by your father's aunt and which was used by Stalin...

james_h

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Re: Restitution?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2006, 08:58:34 PM »
Quote
When I was speaking about restitution, I meant the assets owned in 1917. And no any slaves belonged to the Yussupov since 1862.

But as We know that Zenaida Yussupova has nether firmed a renunciation to her fortune as the Bolshevics asked to many famillies to let them leavel (the Sheremetiev did). More, the Yussupov familly has never bitrayed Russia with for example Prince Felix Felixovitsh's attitude in Paris towards Nazis proponals. So, the Russian Government has actually no legal basis to oppose a restitution.

Off course, it would be impossible to handover thindgs as the Moika and Nievski palaces in Petersburg or chefd'oeuvres conserved in the Ermitage Musieum. But estate as Arkhangelskoe, the Yussupov Datcha on Ielaginski Island or even Koreiz can be part of a kind of transaction. That kind of things happened in the Baltic countries with the assets of German aristocrates.


For god's sake sistrion. How do you think the Yusupovs made their money. 1862 was not far from 1918 and I deign to suggest that by 1862 most of their fortune was already made. To expect any of it back 88 years after the revolution is crass.

As to what the Sheremetevs signed, it would have been under duress and wouldn't count.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by james_h »

Vassili_Vorontsoff

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Re: Restitution?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2006, 09:31:19 AM »
I wonder if restitutions has been done in Western Union(even Romania for the Habasbourg this late days)what about countries who was in the Tsarist empire and which are not more in THE Russian federation...does Ukraine Baltic states or Finland  give back palaces,estates to their original owners?

Vassili

Vassili_Vorontsoff

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Re: Restitution?
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2006, 03:35:57 PM »
Could anybody translate from russian,please...,?
Vassili

Vassili_Vorontsoff

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Re: Restitution?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2006, 08:06:52 AM »
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/9314-18.cfm

The links which deals about the restitution of an house in Moscow...I hope some would be still interested in this issue to answer my questions...

The beginning of a restitution in Ukraine:http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;8960/

Vassili

Dominic_Albanese

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Re: Restitution?
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2006, 07:19:31 AM »
Vassili -  I use "http://www.online-translator.com/srvurl.asp?lang=en" to translate web pages from russian to english - it generally works very well.  Here is a translation of the above mentioned article:

"Putin has given up to countess
Source: Moscow [ch1082][ch1086][ch1084][ch1089][ch1086][ch1084][ch1086][ch1083][ch1077][ch1094]
The author: Vladimir Malyshev
   When two months ago the World congress of the compatriots living abroad took place in Moscow, and their meeting with Vladimir Putin have shown on TV, it was possible to notice, how one representative kind lady, is obvious from "was(former)", has transferred(transmitted) the president an envelope. Vladimir Vladimirovich has slightly become puzzled of unexpectedness, but the envelope has taken and has mechanically lowered(omitted) it(him) in a pocket of a jacket...
   So it was for a mysterious envelope and who was that elegant lady? Call its(her) Xenia Nikolaevna Sheremetev-[ch1070][ch1089][ch1091][ch1087][ch1086][ch1074][ch1072], now lives in Greece. Its(her) father - Sheremetev, and mother - from family Yusupovykh, have been compelled(forced) to leave(abandon) Russia after revolution and have died in France. However long time they lived in Athenes where Xenia Nikolaevna has married Greek Iliasa Sfiri. [ch1070][ch1089][ch1091][ch1087][ch1086][ch1074][ch1099] - one of the most ancient nobiliary surnames in old Russia. The most well-known relative Xenia Nikolaevny - its(her) native grandfather, Felix Feliksovich Yusupov, that which " has killed [ch1056][ch1072][ch1089][ch1087][ch1091][ch1090][ch1080][ch1085][ch1072] ". Another, Nikolay Borisovich, the politician and the diplomat, restored monuments of the Kremlin, including the Armory Museum where has created in 1814 a popular museum after the French ruin. Is in family and imperial roots. When scientists identified the imperial remains found near of Ekaterinburg blood for the analysis of DNA took from English prince and at Xenia Nikolaevny.
   From all sort [ch1070][ch1089][ch1091][ch1087][ch1086][ch1074][ch1099][ch1093] madam Sfiri has remained one that is why after long meditations has decided to address to the president with the request about... The inheritance. The matter is that in past [ch1070][ch1089][ch1091][ch1087][ch1086][ch1074][ch1099] were, perhaps, the richest family in Russia. It(she) posessed numerous palaces in Moscow and Petersburg, possession in Crimea and other areas of Russia, treasure of culture: pictures of great masters, collections of ancient porcelain, unique jewels, etc., etc. However after revolution they have lost all.
   Xenia Nikolaevna lives now modestly, on pension of husband Iliasa. Since in Russia the communistic mode, countess has failed, as well as many other things offsprings is no time loud surnames in Russia, was asked by a question: if new Russian can build and have private residences why it is impossible to have the same " old Russian "? It usually answer so: in Russia till now there is no law about [ch1088][ch1077][ch1089][ch1090][ch1080][ch1090][ch1091][ch1094][ch1080][ch1080], as, for example, in Baltic. But also, after revolution has passed(has taken place) already so much years, that the rights of true owners are difficult for establishing(installing). Many have already died, others have dissipated on light, the third cannot agree among themselves in any way.
   - The question on the property has basic value, - Xenia Nikolaevna speaks. - In any other European country of the right of proprietors have no limitation period. If Russia has decided to return to the historical roots and to become rather civilized state it(she) should behave in the same way and in the property rights. By the way, in this sense the Russian authorities already recognize something. As, for example, imperial debts of France. For this reason, - it(she) continues, - I and have decided to address to president Putin and have written to it(him) the letter which has transferred(transmitted) personally in hands. By the way, I am very grateful to Vladimir Vladimirovichu that it(he) has helped(assisted) me to receive the Russian citizenship.

Continued...

Dominic_Albanese

  • Guest
Re: Restitution?
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2006, 07:23:58 AM »
Continued...

   In the letter to the president countess has told about itself and about the family. It(she) speaks, that is not going to apply at all for the property of family Yusupovykh in Russia. In many palaces now there are museums, and it(she) does not demand their return. However considers(counts), something all the same should be returned. For now, coming to native Peter, Xenia Nikolaevna removes a hotel accommodation...

   ***

   From edition:
   We do not know the exact maintenance(contents) of the answer of the letter of Vladimir Putin to decanter(countess) Yusupovoj which has been transferred(transmitted) to it(her) through the Russian embassy in Athenes, we know one: the answer was negative. As has induced us to address to a theme of the property "was(former)". Those "was(former)", that unlike present new Russian while mostly become famous in mafia disassemblies, were and remain a part of history of Russia.
   Yes one of them boozed and burnt conditions, others, the same blue [ch1082][ch1088][ch1086][ch1074][ch1077][ch1081] were put(folded) with heads on fields of Borodino, in wars for glory of fatherland, mastered Siberia, is proud bore(carried) the Russian flag on oceans and the seas.
   These descendants " [ch1080][ch1075][ch1088][ch1086][ch1102] happiness of the humiliated sorts " now have turned to a caste of the international vagabonds. The native land - mother so till now also was not defined(determined) in the attitude(relation) to them.


On January, 21st, 2002 Moscow [ch1082][ch1086][ch1084][ch1089][ch1086][ch1084][ch1086][ch1083][ch1077][ch1094]"

best,
dca

Vassili_Vorontsoff

  • Guest
Re: Restitution?
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2006, 08:20:50 AM »
To put it in a nut shell Dominic,thanks a lot...

I really appreciate such a translator...

Vassili