Restitution?

[james_h]

Casterov

You quote interesting figures. Would you mind putting references in so we may check your sources for ourselves? By the way Grand Duke Sandro’s opinion would be hearsay. The Yusupov case was used to begin with, as a hypothetical example to make an illustrative point.
Also could you please, when quoting figure put the currency and year you are talking about.
Eg. Gold Rubles or Rubles or US dollars.  Is you post in US$ please mention whether it's historical currency.

But clearly photos of riches are more evidential than bank/insurance/valuation  statements 


J

[Vassili_Vorontsoff]

I think all that has been writen about slavery is interesting but a little bit beside the question...

It is necessary to be moderate in its opinions ,in the problem of restitution have a see on Us department state,the article they send on restitution in Europe is highly interesting(thanks Jacqueline).http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/or/69520.htm

In the case of resitution you can not ask aristocrats to pay debts if they do n,ot only have all their properties back including money stolen in banks,estates,arts objects so,you can not demand Mrs Sphiri-descendant of the Yussoupov -
to pay debts if his stradivarius,his estate in Arkhangelskoye ,his pavilion in Tsarskoye Selo;all the things who belonged to  her family has not been gave back!!!

Personaly I've nothing to win in restitution but I found it exagerate to ask old russians nobles to restore their palace,to pay their debts and all the things if restitution would happen!!!Given the fact that in all cases everything would not be restitute why asking the impossible?Why paying interests on debts given the fact they were exiled,during the communist period they do not only own the belongings for which they acculmulate debts!

You have to see on western restitution in the ex ussr countries it is not the case!!!If you consider the problem of russian loan  at the end of the communist period,Russian state give only for compensation of those titles a symbolical dollar wheras many frenchs have lost all their money in this  at the end of first world war!

Total restitution is impossible that's why actual urge of russian's state to recobnver all her olds belongings aborad is ambigous...
One may question the aim of property restitution :the first aim would be to show that Russia is a democratiuc country who can protect private property who can act as a democratic power,the second aim is to save all this inheriatnce which fall into neglect...as a matter of fact aristocrats would not be able to restore their palace if they are not helped,in Hungarian they receive a small

[Vassili_Vorontsoff]

sum of money...

ON TOP OF THAT ,restitution could attract a population of strangers investors,people who have graduate in occidental schools and who could help economical life in Russia...

Vassili
Let's hope some would understand to what I mean...

[james_h]

  vassili, what ever made you think Russia is, or even pretends to be a modern democracy ala, the west?

It doesn't, it also accepts that it is not perceived as such.
It remains an autocracy, perhaps always will.

Full restitution is a dream, partial restitution is a dream, but the more plausible of the two. The point of aristocratic debt would be to initiate a landmark case where after given back restitution, the aristocrat is left with nothing, which would hopefully prevent others from following suit. I doubt Russia cares what happens restitution-wise in other countries.

I understand that the Yusupov’ had vastly more assets than debts, I understand that. The Russian government doubtlessly does not care, nor too would most of their legal institutions. THEY DO NOT CARE!

Restitution has little to do with investment. The prospect of making money attracts investors, nothing else. Russia abounds with an est. $30 Trillion dollars of mineral wealth. That would attract an investor not some former noble living in a badly run down, squalid mansion.

"you can not demand  Mrs Sphiri-descendant of the Yussoupov -
to pay debts if his stradivarius,his estate in Arkhangelskoye ,his pavilion in Tsarskoye Selo;all the things who belonged to  her family has not been gave back!!!"  - Vassili_Vorontsoff


I disagree with this vehemently, of course you can. Even if you’re correct and it was a thinly veiled attempt to put an end to the restitution claims.

"why asking the impossible?" - Vassili_Vorontsoff
BECAUSE it IS impossible, try and think within the mind of an attorney, representing Russian government towards not paying restitution.

I would like to make two points now if I may...
1. How Russia is now is how it always was, inept and corrupt. Former Soviets are for all intense and purposes today’s aristocracy. Given modern day privileges and advantages that are denied to everyone else. Descendants of Russia's aristocracy can now perhaps understand what being on the "outside" was like for everyone else, as unpleasant as that was for 300 + years.

 
2.                                                                                                       Modern equivalent 
Year                                             1900                                                    2000                                                       
Title                                            Tsar                                                  President         
                                              Aristocrat                                Former Soviet Youth Leaders
                                                 Peasant                                                  Citizen

[james_h]

http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/or/69520.htm

I've read that, if you believe that will happen in Russia you are dreaming.

Catholics and Jews have modern political entities vying for their former property
Catholics            -  Vatican -  Permanent observer status on the U.N. security council.
Jews                 -  Israel    - It's an actual country for goodness sakes. 
Russian Nobles    - R.N.A*  -  No power, no money, no public sympathy or public interest.

* Russian Noblity Association. The only way this could become a lobby group is if it is endowed with money from former nobles. It would take most former Russian Nobles to give as much money as they are able to make this an entity worth anything. Even then it's chances of success would be nothing without behind the scenes compromise and bribes.

J

[jacqueline]

No restitution of property nationalized after 1917 - government
ST. PETERSBURG, September 27 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's culture minister said Wednesday that property nationalized after the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution will not be restituted.

Following the Bolshevik seizure of power in 1917, all property belonging to the Russian aristocracy was nationalized as part of a declared campaign to eliminate private property and create a classless society.

"The question is often asked whether property nationalized after the October (1917) Revolution will be restituted, but I always say no," Alexander Sokolov said.

The issue has re-emerged now that the remains of Russian Empress Maria Fyodorovna, mother of the executed Tsar Nicholas II, have arrived in Russia from Denmark for reburial due on Thursday in St. Petersburg. The move is part of an agreement signed between the two countries to honor the royal's last wish.

However, Sokolov said that restitution has never been a consideration, and that the return of the Empress is not a reason to raise the question again.

Empress Maria Fyodorovna, the Danish-born wife of Russian Emperor Alexander III, died in 1928 in Copenhagen where she moved after the Bolshevik Revolution. She will be reburied at the Peter and Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg, a sepulcher for the Romanov dynasty, which ruled Russia for more than 300 years.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060927/54309907.html

[Robert_Hall]

Is this earth-shattering news supposed to be informing us of something we did not already know?

[jacqueline]

It is a NEW article from earlier today. I am sure someone finds it interesting.

However, if you are so erudite that you already know everything without reading the news, then you should definitely ignore it. 

[james_h]

I suspect what Robert meant was, most of us read the Moscow, St Petersburg times etc...
We go there to keep abreast of Russian issues.
We do not go to the Alexander palace forum, with salivating mouths for the latest "copy and paste" of Russian news provided by Jacqueline +.

J

[jacqueline]

I suspect what Robert meant was, most of us read the Moscow, St Petersburg times etc...
We go there to keep abreast of Russian issues.
We do not go to the Alexander palace forum, with salivating mouths for the latest "copy and paste" of Russian news provided by Jacqueline +.

J

How rude!

[james_h]

I think people should speak in what ever language is comfortable.  There are many free translators on the web.
http://www.worldlingo.com/en/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html

Anyway, I don't feel like re-typing it all out but all I said was that I agree that it is difficult to get anything done in Russia. 

That was rude. Especially from a newbie.
Expecting to change the language de jure of the site because of....? It baffled me.
It is of course not "Le forum de palais d'Alexandre"

 That's one of the problems with this forum Jacqueline, most of us on occasion are rude, dogmatic or hypocritical. And with only 25 or so posts under your belt you have been aswell.
 Unless you display exemplary behaviour yourself (I'm of the opinion you do not) lets not feign offense?

J

[Reco]

Jacqueline,

Certain people not having the average intellectuals minimum to learn another language reproach the others for having this capacity.

They try to minimize the others to emphasize itself.

It is precisely what James h does.

Reco

[Reco]

Especially if is to humiliate a woman.

Reco

[ashdean]

James,not for the FIRST time you have gone a bit too far.Wouldn't it be nice to be nicer to a Lady in future?, indeed to apologise to a certain lady now....

[Valmont]

I agree with James. The issue here is not  How intelligent you are or how many lenguages you spreak, but how polite you are to others. You cannnot be rude to others and then complaint others are being rude to you. or not care  about if other people understand what you write in the lenguage  you feel most comfortable with and then complaint it is not your fault if other people are not smart enough to learn another lenguage... that is rude !!!  I do not care if it is about a Lady in future or not... There is a thing called "Manners"... but then again.. maybe our Lady in Future does not know what that word means.. (And I am being rude now..)

Arturo Vega-Llausás