Restitution?

[jacqueline]

In regards to the Xenia Sfiris restitution, I have a question about property laws:
 
I know that the nobility titles could not be passed down, except by special approval by the tzar. However, since noble titles were not attached to land in Russia, is it true or false that real property could not be passed down by the female line (when the male line was extinct)? Did females have the right to own property and pass it as inheritance to their children?

[Vassili_Vorontsoff]

I'm sorry to stop you,but I don't think that russian's governement really care for suh a law ,im my view and after a long wwork on russian politicy I may say that they more act,think in term of power what an make them stonger...

Jacqueline,inutile de dire que le français ets plus fluide d'utilisation pour moi,à vrai dire je ne saurai répondre à votre question de premier abord très intéressante(et même de tout abord)mais au vu de ce que j'ai lu ,des luttes intestines de pouvoir,ce pouvoir déliquescent qu'est celui russe cherche surtout à ne pas perdre la face,à s'imposer comme un état fort oscillant entre la démocratie de façade et l'autoritarisme,l'ex en est celui d'un noble russe retourné au pays et qui par voie légale(!) a été jeté de sa maison(j'entends une maison familiale qu'il ocupait à la campagne ,une ruine qu'il retapait,cela dit sans accord de l'administration)par des hommes armés qui les ont malmenés (lui et sa famille)et qui ont fait des destructions dans "son" domaine,le prince Mechersky ,je crois...Répondre à une occupation (sauvage?)par une exclusion violente,est-ce une pratique légale?

Reste à espérer beaucoup sur une transition plus libérale vers un état de droit avec un successeur de Poutine et avec une disparition de la pauvreté avec les revenus(importants générés pas le pétrole)...mais le changement peut être aussi synonyme de durcissement...Pour moi,le pouvoir actuel est "un sorte d'état monarchique soviétique"...j'espère des évolutions,la culture et le patrimoine sont en temps de troubles les secteurs les plus touchés généralement...

For those who can not speak french,I just said my position ,I develop my stand point (more easily in french to a french)just as I've done in the page on the restitution of the palace in Petersbourg...

Best wishes,
Vassili

[Vassili_Vorontsoff]

HI(once more) every one,

3 new articles about restituition(Jacqueline ask for it in june):
http://www.kyivweekly.com/?art=1153246461
http://rc.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/sfl-orussiapropjul30,0,2640364.story?coll=sfla-news-nationworld
http://www.incommunion.org/articles/news-reports/news-35(they drow a parallel between churhc restirution and aristocrats one)

Good night(it really be soon the time for me to wake up,white night for me,as in Russia!)
Vassili

[jacqueline]

Bonjour Vassili,

Merci pour les nouveaux articles! Je ne sais pas si je l'ai dit auparavant mais nous parlons le français à notre maison et le français est parfait avec moi. Je ne crois pas que n'importe quels Anglophiles s'intéressent à ce thème en tout cas 

Ma famille, les Princes Gagarin (line1, branch 1), a aussi récemment eu des problèmes cherchant juste des archives personnelles de famille en Russie. Ils disent que "il y a tellement" et "tout est détruit" dans la même haleine. Ils essaient de nous obscurcir, je crois.... Mais nous savons la vérité deja. Disons juste que les choses se sentent toujours très soviétiques et non coopératif. Il y a certaines personnes agréables en Russie mais, ceux avec le pouvoir, vous aident seulement pour un très grand prix. Ce n'est pas une atmosphère très chrétienne... Nous voudrions aussi restituer nos maisons ancestrales de famille, mais quand il est si dur de recevoir un acte de naissance j'imagine qu'il serait plus difficile de recevoir n'importe quoi ce qui a une grande valeur monétaire.

Je sais que ce sera difficile mais c'est important pour la Diaspora de se poursuivre sur notre mission pour la reconnaissance formelle et la restitution. Les enfants et les petit-enfants peuvent avoir été nés en France, Serbie, Angleterre ou Chine mais nos âmes sont toujours en Russie. Il faut avoir la justice...  tout le monde.

Best Regards,
Jacqueline

[Valmont]

Jacqueline,
We, English speakers DO are interested in such a subject in all case.....But I think it is unpolite for non-french speakers ...this is a public forum and every opinion counts. Please be so kind to write it in English, as same as you Vasili....

Best Regards,

Arturo Vega-Llausás

[jacqueline]

I think people should speak in what ever language is comfortable.  There are many free translators on the web.
http://www.worldlingo.com/en/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html

Anyway, I don't feel like re-typing it all out but all I said was that I agree that it is difficult to get anything done in Russia. 

[Valmont]

Then, if there are many free translators on the web... May I ask why you do not use one?.. My mother told me once that good manners were not only eating with your mouth closed and your elbows off the table.. It is also  making the other people feel the most comfortable possible, also as a sign of respect to them...

I hope one day you will find a meanning to this advise..
Best Regards,

Arturo Vega-Llausás

[Vassili_Vorontsoff]

Valmont(a  character the  french book Les liaisons dangereuses de Laclos;I've just noticed it!),

I prefer to voice my excuse before this stupid incident makes too much noise...

In fact,it is my fault,I was the first one to speak in french,there is no doubt that an english forum need english answers(I'm a bit nostalgic of the time where all good "mannered"persons spoke french(indeed russian aristocrats ,Jacqueline certainly wants to perpetuate the tradition)...but it does not matter(for website users)I'm disappointed to havecaused such a problem...

Sorry,
Vassili

[Vassili_Vorontsoff]

Jacqueline ,I'm totally mesmerized a real heirs of aristocrats!!!

Which one of your palace do you would like (mostly )to be restitute...Do you live in France or practice french...,?

Have been there (in Russia or ex USSR countries)to see your"heritage"?Don't you think that aristocrats would have mùore chance for restitution in Ukraine than in Russia?

Vassili

[Reco]

Valmont,

I am French-speaking. I make a very large effort to understand what the members write in English. I use a translator. My mother told me that it is impolite to reproach the others for using another language. 

There are several countries and languages on this planet. They deserve all the same respect.

There are many members who are not english-speaking. They make an effort to communicate in English. Why crush them with your superiority of unilingual english-speaking ?

 If you want to be respected, respects the others. It is so pleasant to have a gesture of generosity towards the others.


Reco

 

[jacqueline]

Vassili,

Are you related to the Counts Vorontsoff?

Yes, in 1996 I lived in St. Petersburg for a semester through a program with my university.  It was a wonderful experience for me. While I was there I was not able to do very much personal research because the students' schedules were highly controlled. I did have the chance to visit one estate that had been converted into a restaurant and musical conservatory. It was quite interesting! My uncle, however, had a chance to visit some family estates in the country-side near Moscow. He was very well received by the locals and they wanted the family to return. 

I hope to go back to Russia again because I feel a strong connection with this place. It is hard to explain this feeling. In fact, I would be happy to live freely anywhere in Russia but I don't know when or if this will be possible.  One of my cousins is currently in Kiev researching the possibility restitution in Ukraine but I don't know if he has made progress.

Many people don't know that it was not just the nobility that owned properties. Merchants, peasants, foreigners and others also owned properties. If restitution happens, it will need to happen for everyone but this will likely be very complicated. I hope there will be a way to resolve this situation so that everyone will be happy.

Jacqueline

[james_h]

Jacqueline

Are you not a Gagarin through the maternal line? Which would not really make you one at all. Title's and surnames cannot be transferred through female line without a tsarist ukase. No Tsar, no ukase, no Gagarin?

Regards
James

[james_h]

Many people don't know that it was not just the nobility that owned properties. Merchants, peasants, foreigners and others also owned properties. If restitution happens, it will need to happen for everyone but this will likely be very complicated. I hope there will be a way to resolve this situation so that everyone will be happy.

Jacqueline

It is more complicated than you could imagine. Most aristocratic estates before the revolution were not freehold. That is to say, they were either mortgaged or their ownership was partitioned to get access to cash, or more commonly to pay off debt. How would you attempt to return ownership of an estate to
Pr. Poor No-one'i'vich Gotnomoneyisky, when ownership of his former estate was....

Pr. P.N.Gotnomoneyisky   = 25.68%
Merchant Bank               = 74.32%

True enough the Merchant bank never "owned" it. But neither in it's entirety did the former owner. The actual financial status of the Russian aristocracy was far more disaccorded than people are willing to believe. The aristocracy was not in actual fact very wealthy. One could see, if these doors were opened,  a judicial court tied up quite conceivably for 40 years debating the merits of only one case.

There are many options though. Descendant's could make their own money and buy back the former estate in which case a Russian Governmental  "priority of tender" could conceivably be offered to descendents, provided of course they pay market rates for ownership.

[james_h]

In regards to the Xenia Sfiris restitution, I have a question about property laws:
 
I know that the nobility titles could not be passed down, except by special approval by the tzar. However, since noble titles were not attached to land in Russia, is it true or false that real property could not be passed down by the female line (when the male line was extinct)? Did females have the right to own property and pass it as inheritance to their children?

Of course, on the famous list of "Russia's greatest serf-owners" 17 of the 63 mentioned were women.
Minarik's list also includes 7 large land owning women, an underestimate as it does not include men on the list due to what their wives bought to the marriage.

[jacqueline]

Jacqueline

Are you not a Gagarin through the maternal line? Which would not really make you one at all. Title's and surnames cannot be transferred through female line without a tsarist ukase. No Tsar, no ukase, no Gagarin?

Regards
James

Dear James,
I am not here incognito. Yes, my mother is Princess Gagarina but I am not a Princess.   I do not have a title. My father is American and I still officially carry his last name, Curry. The Gagarin line (and titles) pass through my mother's brother (my uncle). He has 3 sons and they do carry the title of Prince.  He is also the head of the family and I have received permission from him to change my last name to Gagarin, if I like.  Regardless of what I decide my last name to be, I will always be part of this family. Since this is okay with my family, I don't see why anyone else would have a problem with it.

Regards,
Jacqueline