Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures

[helenazar]

I contacted karlinsky several years ago when i found out this article and he refused to talk about it saying that since more information had become available he would not stand by whhat he had written and that was that...

Arturo Beéche

Thanks, Art. Do you know by any chance what additional info Karlinsky was talking about?

H

[Eurohistory]

I have a copy of the Karlinsky article actually...somewhere in my files, all of which are still in boxes.  But he mentions Serge Alexandrovich, Serge Michaelovich, Konstantin Konstantinovich JR and four others, including George Alexandrovich.

I do think that Professor Karlinsky assumed that if they were not married, then that wasa sign of their homosexuality, which is of course a flawed approach.

Arturo Beéche

[Eurohistory]

Poor george such a short life, so much he purportedly accomplished...in twenty-eight years of life some have him marrying twice, producing four children, and being an active homosexual, all while he battled the debilitating disease that eventually took his life.

George was a very busy boy if one believes all these things...  

Arturo Beéche

[AGRBear]

Perhaps Georg was bisexual or maybe, people just confused his name with the other George.  I don't know.  However, if he has grandchildren here in the USA then there was a woman or two involved with him.

Until proven otherwise,  I'll go with the two morgantic marriages.

AGRBear

[helenazar]

... if he has grandchildren here in the USA ....

We still don't know what Penny's source was for this info, and the only thing we can make out from Greg's post is that "he was said to..." and "he was believed to.. " and a gentleman on the west coast who claims to be George's son and who allegedly provided evidence to some "well placed friends".

All that is a little too vague for me, so I am going to go with no marriages for George, unless proven otherwise.

[Eurohistory]

Those who assume a rumor is true until proven otherwise set themselves up for a fall...

Let's assume Nicholas II had several mistresses...why not...I can argue that "it was believed that he had them"..."I was told" by a "source" close to "the family."  And under this guise you can just about come up with any kind of nonsensicel and disreputable rumor just about anyone...if that is historical research, Lord have mercy of us.

Sources, sources, sources...just because some gentleman on the west coast makes these rampant allegationsa and claims, to go about assuming that they were true...my...it is all so very reminiscent of the Anna anderson lore...so sad really...

Arturo Beéche

[AGRBear]

There is no reason to twist my words into something which make me appear to be grabbing at rumors, because my source was Enciclopedia Universal Europeo Americana, Penny Wilson and Greg King....  I have stated this and have quoted Penny earlier on this thead.  Since Enciclopedia Universal Europeo Americana, Wilson and King are reliable sources,  I saw no reason why I shouldn't reply on what they tell us.  

Some of you have a different opinion than I, which is fine.  But I'll match my sources to your opinions any day.

AGRBear

[Eurohistory]

There is no reason to twist my words into something which make me appear to be grabbing at rumors, because my source was Enciclopedia Universal Europeo Americana, Penny Wilson and Greg King....  I have stated this and have quoted Penny earlier on this thead.  Since Enciclopedia Universal Europeo Americana, Wilson and King are reliable sources,  I saw no reason why I shouldn't reply on what they tell us.  

Some of you have a different opinion than I, which is fine.  But I'll match my sources to your opinions any day.

AGRBear

As respected as Ms Wilson and Mr King are, they are not the ultimate source on all matters Romanov.  Many an historian believed that Alfred of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha committed suicide and was married "secretly," both of which were not true.  There have been many mistaken "facts' published by reputable books and encyclopedias which have turned out to be erroneous, and based on rumor and hearsay as is the case with this particular aspect of George Alexandrovich's life.

I wonder, for example, why in her correspondence with her daugter, Maria Alexandrovna never said a word of this to Marie of Romania. The Duchess of Saxe-Coburg discussed many extremely private matters (several of these sexual in nature), never mentioned a peep about these alledged four children, two marriages and homosexuality of a poor invalid who died at the age of 28.  For someone who was as weak as George, he surely would have been rather busy in some realms if one is to believe these sources...ney, rumors.

In all the memoirs written by various family members, not one peep of these marriages and children...not one...in private correspondence between family members, not one peep...in every reputable book published about the family, and there have been many, not one peep...humm...

Arturo Beéche

[Belochka]

Since there is lack of substantive evidence that George contracted not one but two marriages, fathering a number of children, all whilst suffering TB, then such speculation is only cause for despicable  baseless rumors.

SPb society would have relished such gossip. No memoirists close to the family, nor had his own mother, or  brothers had ever hinted that such events ever occurred. It would have been not only scandalous but heartbreaking for George's family to admit that George committed these indiscretions against his own family. His terminal condition caused enough grief.

Although Penny Wilson wrote on 2 March:

There's virtually no doubt that this little family is the real deal.

Without genuine marriage and birth certificates I would contend that that there is indeed reasonable doubt.

Perhaps a work of tasteless fiction would be a more appropriate course of action? :-/

[helenazar]

Since Enciclopedia Universal Europeo Americana, Wilson and King are reliable sources,  I saw no reason why I shouldn't reply on what they tell us.  
Some of you have a different opinion than I, which is fine.  But I'll match my sources to your opinions any day.

AGRBear

I still would like to hear what, or who, were the sources for this information - I don't mean secondary sources, I mean the primary ones (there is a difference). And I don't mean the gentleman in the US who claims to be the grandson. Many people "claim" many things, I think we need something more than that. Maybe if Penny can present a credible primary source to us, we would change our minds about George's marriage!

[Belochka]

I still would like to hear what, or who, were the sources for this information - I don't mean secondary sources, I mean the primary ones (there is a difference). And I don't mean the gentleman in the US who claims to be the grandson. Many people "claim" many things, I think we need something more than that. Maybe if Penny can present a credible primary source to us, we would change our minds about George's marriage!

This "chap" on the west coast of US must surely possess the primary documentation? :-/ Why did he remain silent after all these years?

Why did he not attend the "family" funeral in SPb in 1998?

[helenazar]

I'd posted quite a bit on his illness (beginning through the end) and his family's reaction on this thread:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1104973729;start=10#10

Thanks, GDella for the link. I am going to paste some excerpts here:

1895, right around the time when George was allegedly getting divorced and contacting his second mortganatic marriage and having his second or third child (?):

"After her widowhood, MF tried to spend more time with G for his sake and her own. They would make a visit to Denmark in August 1895 which would come to a frightening conclusion. She would write to N about a sudden turn for the worse on G's part: 'Yesterday in the garden he expectorated some blood; that frightened me again more than I can tell--the surprise of it was shocking, because he had been so well of late, so happy...it really is _too_ sad and I am utterly miserable about it and grieved to the heart to part with him again, but I wish now he were already safely back [in the Caucuses]...Doctor Chigayeff is very reliable and has Georgie's confidence, which is very fortunate. The haemorrhage, he assures me, does not alarm him much--it is the railway journey he is really very anxious about; that is why he wants to keep Georgie quietly to his bed here till he has quite recovered...Fortunately, he has no temperature and the last two days has been coughing much less...he is as patient and sweet as a lamb...He must not talk, but he likes people to come and see him and to hear them talk. Victoria and Maud are so nice and kind to him--they stay in his room often and humour him as much as they can.' "

1896:

"G would return to the Caucuses and MF again join him in between Olga's birth and the coronation where she found him in good condition (Mar 1896) and they would journey onto the South of France for physical and mental relief. 'Thank God Georgie is better again and spent some time sitting on the balcony..He is so careful now...never does anything imprudent, just sits quietly in his armchair and does not even go out into the garden, although it is so beautifully warm there. I am certain fresh air can do him nothing but good, but I think he is afraid that the slightest movement might upset him, which is quite natural, of course, after having been so ill twice and forced to keep to his bed. But it is more than annoying, as it makes himlead such a secluded life, never leaving his room.' "

It seems that during the time when George was supposed to have been contracting two mortganatic marriages and having four children, he was either gravely ill or just generally confined to his room most of the time due to his poor health :-/. The main issue in his life seems to be his health.

[Belochka]

To settle this matter conclusively it would be imperative that the "westcoast chap" submit to a DNA profile. Until he submits to this simple and conclusive scientific formality, his contentions are short on veracity.

We await these results with interest ...

[Robert_Hall]

Would not the best opprotunity for that have been when Georgi was exhumed for dna testing with the Ekaterinburg remains ? Anyway, he could be proved false any 100 ways up & down, there would still be those crawling around with conspiracy theories and "deprived by greedy relatives" stories. If there were any "bolshie commies" left they would blame them as well.

[Belochka]

George's recorded DNA profile can be "matched" against this new claimant very easily any time at his convenience. Readings can be repeated in different accredited laboratories around the world to minimize any perception of bias and to guard against any possible perceptions of deliberate mismatching.  

No correlations then this chap can go away and continue dreaming.