Author Topic: Did IF leave their apartment willingly 16/17 July?  (Read 23270 times)

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Did IF leave their apartment willingly 16/17 July?
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2009, 12:07:57 PM »
Indeed, this was clearly the behavior that the Emperor expected of himself, his wife, his children, and his retainers. If any of them had private thoughts, these would have been kept that way. We do know Alexei said of going to the Urals, "I am afraid of what they will do to us there". (not exact, but the gist of what he said).

I tend to agree they knew they were done for, just perhaps not done for at that very instance.

Robert_Hall

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Re: Did IF leave their apartment willingly 16/17 July?
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2009, 12:29:45 PM »
I would like to think the Imperial couple knew what was coming, but probably had hopes the children would survive. At least the daughters.  It was pretty obvious that Alexei wiould not make it anyway. And from what I have read, Olga has been described as a "walking corpse".

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Did IF leave their apartment willingly 16/17 July?
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2009, 02:06:48 PM »
I would like to think the Imperial couple knew what was coming, but probably had hopes the children would survive. At least the daughters.  It was pretty obvious that Alexei wiould not make it anyway. And from what I have read, Olga has been described as a "walking corpse".

While it's only conjecture, I'm sure that Nicholas for certain wanted his children to survive and would have moved heaven and earth to ensure their safety. And, we know that many of those who remained with Nicholas and Alexandra did so believing that their presence kept the couple safer. We know this was true for their daughters, Dr. Botkin, Kharitonov - all of them.

So how sad they all had to lose their lives.

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Did IF leave their apartment willingly 16/17 July?
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2009, 02:48:46 PM »
We do know Alexei said of going to the Urals, "I am afraid of what they will do to us there". (not exact, but the gist of what he said).

I thought it was Demidova who said that to Gilliard or Gibbes before departing with NAM. (I can't find it in Gilliard right now, but it could also be in Wilton or Trewin.)
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JStorey

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Re: Did IF leave their apartment willingly 16/17 July?
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2009, 10:36:07 AM »
Back to the original question, I believe this idea is something you could easily prove, not guess, didn't happen.  Step 1, however, for anyone with any familiarity with the Ipatiev house, is WHICH DOOR?  Without this specificity the exercise is meaningless.

Alixz

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Re: Did IF leave their apartment willingly 16/17 July?
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2009, 09:48:51 AM »
I think it was not one door but several.

If you look back at page one of this thread there is a lot of information about bored guards bayoneting the doors for something to do.

Also, as another poster pointed out, in pictures taken in the house after the family was shot, the doors are all still on their hinges and are all still intact.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Did IF leave their apartment willingly 16/17 July?
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2010, 11:12:16 AM »
It was when  Phil Tomaselli  brought to my attention the evidence of 'THE DOOR" that I started to look for the possibility of other clues which may tell us that Nicholas II and the others didn't leave this world like lambs being lead to slaughter by the CHEKA on the eventful night of July 16/ 17 1918 in the basement of the Ipatiev House.

Let me quote from  Alekseyev / Alekseiev's book THE LAST ACT OF TRAGEDY pps. 234:

>>An examination of the Ipatyev house where the tsar's family had stayed revealed that the door to a room on the upper floor had been hacked with bayonets and torn off hinges by some tool. <<

Far as I know, none of the eleven ever mention the Bolseviks having a confrontation with one of their doors in the IF's apartment before that night.

When looking at all the photographs of the IF's apartments, all the doors seem intact and hanging at each door way....

Between the last entry of anyone diary of the IF on 16th of July   to the take over by the Whites on the 25th of July in 1918,  is there mention of Reds having a confrontation with one of the doors in the imperial apartment?  No?  Why not?  Or maybe a better question would be:  Why would the Reds hack and bayonet a door then tear it off it's hinges from the door frame of the imperial apartment that night, the 17, 18th, 19, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd or 24th?  

Probable answer:  To get to someone/ someones who had locked themself/themselves in a room in the IF's apartment.

Who could that have been if  all eleven had marched obediently down the stairs and to the basement room?

Maybe, just maybe, all eleven had made an effort to delay their execution by going into a room, locking and barricading the door, in hopes the rescuers who had promised to be there that night would arrive in time to save them...

There are letters, now believed as being forged, to the IF promising a rescue earlier.....  Maybe, they had heard from real rescuers, also, only this time Nicholas II didn't write about it in his diary...

And remember, not just the IF but everyone in Ekaterinburg could hear the guns of the Whites had grown nearer and everyone was preparing for the entry of the Whites that week, AND, that night.

Done of us really know everything that happen that night of the 16th and early morning of the 17th....

AGRBear

The original suggestion came from a poster, Phil Tomaselli, who is highly regarded on the forum.  Bear took the idea and turned it into something much more horrible than the thought that the door frames might have bayonet cuts on them.

Bear tended to do that.  To take a subject and to turn it inside out and change it.

I believe the version left by Yurovsky.  He was there and he wrote the notes that contained the information that is believed to be the truth of the matter.

The Romanovs had been moved and prepared to move on so many occasions, that I don't believe they thought this trip was any different.

I think that Nicholas and maybe Alexandra knew in their souls that they would not live much longer, but I can not imagine that they or anyone else thought that the rest of the family and the retainers and Dr. Botkin would be killed along with them.

Everything was done too carefully (within the house, it was the actions after the murder that were a circus).  And as I posted from the book by Kleir and Mingay, so many people visited the house to morbidly take souvenirs that the doors could have been damaged at any time before during or after the murders.

There is just no reason to believe that anyone barricaded themselves into a room to try and escape execution.  If that were the case then the family would never have made it to the basement and IMHO the killing would have been done right where they took their "last stand".

Bear does not change the facts.  My source was and still is  excellent.  Alekseyev / Alekseiev's book THE LAST ACT OF TRAGEDY pps. 234.   Bear does ask a lot of  questions.  Sometimes there are answers.  Sometimes not.  We just do not know everything that happen before, during and after the execution of the Royal Family.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 11:22:14 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Did IF leave their apartment willingly 16/17 July?
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2010, 11:43:01 AM »
Here are some excellent photos of the interior and exterior of the Ipative House:

Seems like we could use a master thread for photos of the Ipatiev house. There are a few photos scattered here and there, but many have turned into those irritating little red X's. So, here goes...



Click on these words:

<<Quote from: Sarushka on May 13, 2007, 06:19:00 PM>>

and you'll be taken to the thread which is about ten pages long with even more photos.

Enjoy.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 11:45:56 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Alixz

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Re: Did IF leave their apartment willingly 16/17 July?
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2010, 08:58:09 AM »
Bear - I am sorry to have put my reply in a way that seemed my intention was to say that you were changing facts.  The facts are that the door was damaged.  You said only that.

Bear tended to do that.  To take a subject and to turn it inside out and change it.

What I meant was that you tend to take a subject and turn it inside out to look for another conclusion.  I didn't mean that you tried to change the facts.

However, there could be many reasons why the door was damaged.  No one knows if it was because the family tried to keep their jailers out on the night of their death.

The damage could have been done days before the murder on the day of the murder or even, as I said before, by tourists and morbid curiosity seekers who came to look around after the fact.


Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Did IF leave their apartment willingly 16/17 July?
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2011, 08:00:07 PM »
In fact, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Imperial Family was anything but cooperative with their jailers during their entire captivity. At least for part of the time the were held, it was for their protection because the IF were pariahs both in Russia and in the rest of the world - they truly needed protection.

I would even go so far as to say that without the ghastly murder, they would still be pariahs today and we would not have this forum or the APTM website - all of this grew out of the horrible martyrdom the Family endured.